MM writes:



Scripture very clearly points out that Christ was circumcised according to Jewish custom, however, there is nothing that I know of that tells of His Bar mitzvah at 13.

While Christians designate the Messiah by the titles, Son of man, Daniel 7:13, and Son of God in the sense of being God Incarnate. He was given the name Jesus which means Redeemer or Savior at His circumcision as per the angel's instruction to His Blessed Mother Mary.

Christ was without sin so He was in no need of circumcision. He submitted to the rite for the following reasons:

According to the prophecies the Redeemer was to be a true Israelite and son of Abraham. To be such and recognized as such one had to be circumcised. By His In carnation, Our Lord took upon Himself the sins of mankind so as to make satisfaction for them. For this purpose He shed His precious Blood for the first time in His cricumcision, and showed us that He had come to redeem us by His Blood. That's why the name of Jesus was given to Him on the day of His circumcision. By voluntarily obeying the Law, and submitting Himself to the rite of circumcision, He wished to give us an example of obedience to the Divine law.

News flash, If you are a Jewish male back then you took Bar Mitzvah! Period. age 13 period, no proof needed it's just a fact of life under Torah.

You do make a good point.

Ok, I'll accept that. I apologize for being a bit over sensitive then.

What I mean here is this. Throughout the Torah and Tanakh I see to pictures of Messiah. Two that cannot fit into the same time period. We have the picture of the Messiah that Moses said was coming to teach us. Isaiah 53 is a description of the crucifixion. Zach 14 gives us a picture of Messiah king (Meshiach bin David). As I read about the second coming I see Messiah coming in the clouds with all his glory. On the flip side we see Messiah born in Bethlehem (Beit Lechem - house of bread). I also know that Messiah king is to rule with an iron scepter.

These are just a few reasons why I see two comings of Messiah. The Messiah we see in the Gospels are the descriptions of a servant king rather than a king who rules with an iron rod.

As for Paul:

Acts 15:21 - For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.
Acts 22:3 - I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city educated under Gamaliel , strictly according to the Torah of our fathers, being zealous for G-D just as you all are today.
Acts 23 - I have walked according to Torah.....I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees.
Acts 24:14 - believing everything that is in accordance with the Torah and that is written in the prophets.
Acts 25:8 - I have committed no offense either against the Torah of the Jews or against the Temple.
Acts 26:22 - I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said.
Acts 28:17 - Brethren....I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers.
Romans 2:13 - For it is not the hearers of the Torah who are just before G-D, but the doers of the Torah will be justified.
Romans 2:26-27 - If the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Torah, will not his uncircumcision? and he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Torah, will he not judge you who through having the letter of the Torah and circumcision are a transgressor of the Torah?
Romans 3:31 - Do we then nullify the Torah through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.
Roman 7:12 - So then, the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Romans 7:14 - For we know that the Torah is spiritual
Romans 7:22 - For I joyfully concur with the Torah of G-D in the inner man.
1 Cor 7:19 - What matters is the keeping of the commandments of G-D.
1 Cor 11 - We see Paul partaking in Passover (which is what the Lords supper was all about).
Galations 3:24 - Therefore the Torah has become our tutor to lead us to Messiah so that we may be justified by faith.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of G-D; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Jesus for good work of Torah, which G-D prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
1 Timothy 1:8 - We know that the Torah is good, if one uses it lawfully.
1 timothy 6:14 - Keep the commandment (Torah) without stain or reproach.


Are these words of a man who turned his back against Torah?

Not if you are the One Almighty God as Jesus the Christ is.

MM posts:

LW POSTS:

Yes, this too in and of itself is a very logical conclusion. (But not if you are referring to the Christ.)

LW,

The reason I say this is because Scripture is silent on MM's logical conclusion but not on yours.

What difference does it make whether he was married or not?

If you think about it, he came down here to give us an example. And God himself has commanded humanity to marry and multiply. So, logically, he wouldn't have been "fulfilling all of God's commandments" if he HADN'T been married with children.

I know Catholics have this weird thing about celibacy, but come on. Think about it.

Very good. I believe this also.

The OT records record both the first and second comings. When the Jews read these writings it seems they only focused on the King that would rule with the rod totally rejecting the servant Messiah prophecies. That's where the Pharisees came in turning the people against Him. He met all the conditions for the first but didn't for the second so they rejected him.



I'd like to take this on AD but don't have time currently...maybe later? Good stuff tho!!

Please be careful with this blanketed statement KFC. Keep in mind that Pharisees taught a greater emphasis on Rabbinical Laws (aka Oral Laws). It was the Sadducees and Pharisees that rejected him NOT 'the Jews' which implies a collective whole.

The difference is something in life has to be the final word...has to be Absolute Truth. For me, that's Sacred Scripture and what the Church teaches ex cathedra.

Both Sacred Scripture and the Catholic Church teach ex cathedra that Christ was not ever married and celibate, perfectly sinless in every way...and that Christ is God Incarnate. Period. That's the beginning point of belief.

From that beginning point, we learn from Christ's life what Christian asceticism and the celibate, unmarried life means and the value of it as can be applied to our lives. Being celibate isn't a Catholic weird thing, it's Biblical and heroic.

St.Paul's teaching on celibacy is set forth in his Epistle to the COrinthians ch. 7. And the Church Fathers wrote on this extensively. Virginity, is absolutely, speaking a good state in itself, indeed preferable to marriage, because it enables the Christian to serve God better and "to be holy in body and in spirit". Obviously, it's not intended for all,"for everyone has his proper gift from God, one after this manner and another afte that".

There are two states of human life: married and unmarried.

No, it's not. Really. The only scriptures that even mention anything about why you might not want to get married was Paul's advice to Timothy - and he'd had a bad marriage himself. It wasn't advice to all people, and it wasn't inspired advice. It was basically Paul bitching about his bad marriage. (Happens when you have a conflict of religion in a relationship . . .)

Really, though, the idea of celibate priests and the concept of celibacy being "Biblical and heroic" is laughable and best, and ridiculous at worst.

Yes it would be a miracle to keep the priesthood from Aaron going on through generations through celibacy!

Lula,

Wouldn't 1 John 3:4 suggest that he HAD to be circumcised or he couldn't observe Passover without circumcision (according to Torah)?