America has problems, but America is NOT THE PROBLEM!~

So Satan sitting in his home listening to the screams of the tormented with a smile on his face, decided the Jews were to close to G-d, and this really angered him, he had to find a way to divide the damned Jews, after all G-d decided they were his chosen people and what better target for his evil deeds than watering down the religion, Now Satan had great power, let us not forget that after all he was arch Angel, most high, one of the three named Angels that sat at G-ds side at one time.

So along comes this good man Jesus was his name, he had many good things to say and the people listened, so first Satan hardened the hearts of the Rabbis, made them jealous of Jesus and his huge following, then Satan allowed some minor so called miracles to happen, an easy task for one as powerful as Lucifer. Satan also knew of the prophecy of the Messiah, and he thought what a great idea if he could trick the Jews into believing that Jesus was the Messiah, he could one, break up the tribes of Israel, really anger G-d whom Lucifer hated beyond all things and of course lead people away from the one true faith of Judaism. Needless to say his plan worked the people of Israel {some} believed the Messiah had come, the Rabbis who Lucifer had tricked into believing this good man was a threat to their power played their part perfectly and had the Romans crucify Jesus {all part of the prophecy} Some years after the death of Jesus, Christianity was born, Jesus NEVER claimed to be a Christian, he was circumcised in the Jewish religion and took Bar mitzvah at 13 again following the Jewish religion. Never once did he or his disciples call what Jesus was preaching Christianity, what he was preaching was Judaism in it purest form, with stress on the 10 commandments as a way to live your life. Did this really happen? I have no Idea, but it is no more believable or unbelievable than Jesus being the Human Son of G-d. Meanwhile we Jews of the one true faith are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive and on that day there will be much celebrating, for we have waiting patiently a very long time for this to happen.


Comments (Page 9)
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on Nov 01, 2007
(Citizen)Adventure-DudeNovember 1, 2007 11:34:48


Christ was without sin so He was in no need of circumcision.



By voluntarily obeying the Law, and submitting Himself to the rite of circumcision


Lula,

Wouldn't 1 John 3:4 suggest that he HAD to be circumcised or he couldn't observe Passover without circumcision (according to Torah)?


See this is one of those things about Christians that drive me nuts, a 8 day old baby does not submit to anything, it has no say in anything that happened to it! No voice, cannot talk or make its wishes known!
on Nov 01, 2007
See this is one of those things about Christians that drive me nuts, a 8 day old baby does not submit to anything, it has no say in anything that happened to it! No voice, cannot talk or make its wishes known!


It could be argued that because the baby was G-D incarnate HE had a choice. However to the rest of the babies that's another story.

Maybe someone can help me to understand this. If the OT was OLD and done away with then why circumcise your child? Yes I have heard the medical reason but many agree that isn't the 'sole' purpose it is 'faith' based which suggests OT. This question just perplexes me.
on Nov 01, 2007
The doctors push circumcisions and some people don't think about it until afterwards. Then it is justified by the 'medical benefit' or 'religious beliefs.'
on Nov 01, 2007
Then it is justified by the 'medical benefit' or 'religious beliefs.'


Jythier, as I said it's the medical benefit I can understand. But I have heard many Christians say it is apart of their "religious beliefs." Christian's say the Old Testament is done away with and even in Acts it talks about circumcising to follow the Laws of Moses. I do not see a New Testament reason that suggest circumcision is still important. What I would like to know is this 'justification' as you mention.

on Nov 01, 2007
That's my point - there isn't one that I know of, not one from the Bible. It specifically states that circumcision isn't required of the Gentiles.
on Nov 01, 2007
That's my point - there isn't one that I know of, not one from the Bible. It specifically states that circumcision isn't required of the Gentiles.


I believe you are continuing with the NT? Because in the Torah it is required especially regarding Passover and Native or Alien One Law (Leviticus).

If so then we be in agreement!
on Nov 01, 2007
Acts 15:1-11 (NIV)
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Thanks BibleGateway.com!

Yes, New Testament, so we are in agreement.
on Nov 01, 2007
Thanks BibleGateway.com!


Biblegateway is great for sure.

Another one I really like because I can get into some word study is biblebrowser.com. E-sword has a program that you can download and contains a Strong's Concordance however the advantage of biblebrowser to me is the usage of Hebrew and Greek characters.

Just thought I would pass that on.
on Nov 01, 2007
Ooo, resources!

Thanks!
on Nov 01, 2007
You have some of that story right MM,Lucifer did create a false Messiah,but the Messiah he created divided christianity and the Nazerites/Messianics,the messiah created drove division,for the Jesus the church created is a roman citizen with roman ways,not jewish ways that Yahoshua ben Yosef brought out into the open.

Yahoshua plainly stated he did not come to bring peace but a sword,he was going to bring division,he was going to divide the people,those that follow and do the will of the Father on one side,those who do not follow and do the will of the Father on the other,which side is going to be blessed unto life eternal,the obedient or disobedient?

Last on this you being jewish,you know this better then the outsiders,tell the board what a kinsman redeemer is and the responsibilities of said kinsman.
Terry
on Nov 01, 2007
Being celibate isn't a Catholic weird thing, it's Biblical and heroic.


No, it's not. Really. The only scriptures that even mention anything about why you might not want to get married was Paul's advice to Timothy - and he'd had a bad marriage himself. It wasn't advice to all people, and it wasn't inspired advice. It was basically Paul bitching about his bad marriage.


You must have St.Paul mixed up with some one else.

Regarding St. Paul's advice to Timothy, would you cite the chapter and verse? Concerning St.Paul being married and a bad one at that, I'm quite certain you're mistaken. Everything I've read has always said that St.Paul was never married and 1Cor. 7:7 seems to suggest that as well. I know in those days, it was the obligation of the Pharisees and ordained rabbis to marry, but one source has St.Paul saying, My soul cleaves to the Torah, let others keep the world going.

As a Christian, St.Paul clearly looked upon his celibacy as a mystical betrothal to Christ and the Church.

Really, though, the idea of celibate priests and the concept of celibacy being "Biblical and heroic" is laughable and best, and ridiculous at worst.


Think what you want SC...makes me wonder if you've ever actually read Sacred Scripture. Please before you spout off any further, you might want to actually read in 1Cor. 7: 25-39 how the Apostle Paul explains the excellence of virginity and celibacy.


For the love of God, the unmarried person can dedicate him/herself to God more fully than the married person can who has to look after the family and is "divided" v.34. The primary purpose and reason for Christian virginity is to dedicate oneself to Divine things, giving oneself to God completely body and soul.

Virginity, or celibacy and marriage are the 2 ways of expressing and living the one mystery of the covenant of God with His people. St. Paul teaches that when one or the other isn't esteemed, when human sexuality isn't regarded as a great value given by God, then being married or being celibate for the sake of the Kingdom of God loses its meaning.

Being celibate is indeed Biblical and heroic. Everyone one is called be virginal and celibate unless we are married.

on Nov 01, 2007
See this is one of those things about Christians that drive me nuts, a 8 day old baby does not submit to anything, it has no say in anything that happened to it! No voice, cannot talk or make its wishes known!


I don't know about modern Judaism, but circumcising 8 day old boys was/is and always has been very much a Jewish religious rite, not Christian, MM. And going back to when God first instituted circumcision as explained in the Torah, it was grown men who had to submit themselves to circumcision.

It was this very same discussion of the first Jewish converts of the Chruch in St. Paul's circumcision that the first Jews who converted to Christianity in St.Paul's day in Antioch, around 54AD, categorically asserted that salvation is impossible unless a person is circumcised and tractices the Law of Moses.



AD,


Are these words of a man who turned his back against Torah?


It's not that St.Paul turned his back against the Torah. Discussing circumcision with MM made me think of Acts 15 on Circumcision. The time was around 45 or 50AD, about 15 years after Christ's death, resurrection and ascension into Heaven. There was much confusion and controversy between Christian Jews and Gentiles over whether the Mosaic rites and precepts (in this case circumcision) are still necessary for obtaining salvation. St.Paul is called by special revelation (Gal.2:2) to Jerusalem who together with the other Apostles decide that baptized Gentiles are not obliged to be circumcised and to keep the Old Law. They decide that it is grace and the Law that saves and therefore circumcision and the Law have been supreceded by faith in Jesus Christ. Both St.Paul and St. Peter decide now that Christ has been proclaimed, the Law is not necessary for salvation. In other words, observing the ceremonies, sacrifices and rites of the OLd Covenant Law is not necessary in order to be saved. Whether one can or wants to keep the Law for other reasons is a different and secondary matter.

St.Paul confirms this in his teaching to the Galatians 2:15,
"We, ourselves who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, becasue by works of the law shall no one be justified.

on Nov 01, 2007
There was much confusion and controversy between Christian Jews and Gentiles over whether the Mosaic rites and precepts (in this case circumcision) are still necessary for obtaining salvation.


Agreed circumcision was NEVER about salvation! Circumcision is a 'sign' of the covenant. Circumcision is directly linked to inheritance, Passover and land owning in Torah. I believe in Torah the 'strangers among you' were to be circumcised as well but again this was regarding the previously mentioned items and not salvation.

I think we are in agreement on this one.
on Nov 01, 2007

St.Paul confirms this in his teaching to the Galatians 2:15,
"We, ourselves who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, becasue by works of the law shall no one be justified.


Lula,

Galatians 2:11-21
Is again talking about salvation. Salvation never has and never will come through works through Torah. Salvation came and comes through a blood sacrifice and faith. So I'm not sure of your argument here. The issue here is about salvation.

Think about WHY we need salvation? We need salvation because we are sinners. How are we sinners? Because 1 John 3:4 says "Sin is the transgression of Torah."
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and come short of the glory of G-D.

Paul also tells us that legalistic observance of Torah doesn't provide any salvation. Faith has ALWAYS been an aspect of Torah for salvation.

Ask any Jew about why they go to the wailing wall? It was because of the sacrifices that they found atonement for sins.

on Nov 01, 2007
It's a fact... Jesus is either the Messiah and the Only Name under Heaven by Which Mankind Can Be Saved... or He is the embodiment of falsehood and evil. Whether a person accepts Him as their personal savior or not only matters if He is Our Savior. If He isn't, then nothing about Christianity (in any form) matters at all.

The thing is, to me Judaism and Christianity are only a matter of eras. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; He who taught Moses; He who banished Cain; and He who taught Adam and Eve after they were cast out of the Garden of Eden... That was the same He who was crucified on the cross... and will be at he final judgement.

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