Jesus, Son of G-d or Satan's greatest trick?

Published on October 26, 2007 By Moderateman In Religion

So Satan sitting in his home listening to the screams of the tormented with a smile on his face, decided the Jews were to close to G-d, and this really angered him, he had to find a way to divide the damned Jews, after all G-d decided they were his chosen people and what better target for his evil deeds than watering down the religion, Now Satan had great power, let us not forget that after all he was arch Angel, most high, one of the three named Angels that sat at G-ds side at one time.

So along comes this good man Jesus was his name, he had many good things to say and the people listened, so first Satan hardened the hearts of the Rabbis, made them jealous of Jesus and his huge following, then Satan allowed some minor so called miracles to happen, an easy task for one as powerful as Lucifer. Satan also knew of the prophecy of the Messiah, and he thought what a great idea if he could trick the Jews into believing that Jesus was the Messiah, he could one, break up the tribes of Israel, really anger G-d whom Lucifer hated beyond all things and of course lead people away from the one true faith of Judaism. Needless to say his plan worked the people of Israel {some} believed the Messiah had come, the Rabbis who Lucifer had tricked into believing this good man was a threat to their power played their part perfectly and had the Romans crucify Jesus {all part of the prophecy} Some years after the death of Jesus, Christianity was born, Jesus NEVER claimed to be a Christian, he was circumcised in the Jewish religion and took Bar mitzvah at 13 again following the Jewish religion. Never once did he or his disciples call what Jesus was preaching Christianity, what he was preaching was Judaism in it purest form, with stress on the 10 commandments as a way to live your life. Did this really happen? I have no Idea, but it is no more believable or unbelievable than Jesus being the Human Son of G-d. Meanwhile we Jews of the one true faith are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive and on that day there will be much celebrating, for we have waiting patiently a very long time for this to happen.

Comments (Page 10)

136

Moderateman

on Nov 01, 2007

(Citizen)ParaTed2kNovember 1, 2007 17:26:57

The thing is, to me Judaism and Christianity are only a matter of eras. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; He who taught Moses; He who banished Cain; and He who taught Adam and Eve after they were cast out of the Garden of Eden... That was the same He who was crucified on the cross... and will be at he final judgement.

That's what I do admire about you Ted, you just state how you personally feel without condemning anyone. Wonderful!!!!

137

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Nov 01, 2007

It was the Sadducees and Pharisees that rejected him NOT 'the Jews' which implies a collective whole.

Well in scripture quite often it would say "the Jews" and most of the time it was as you say Sadducees and Pharisees. But also they had their following including many that wished to see Jersualem liberated from Rome.

Wouldn't 1 John 3:4 suggest that he HAD to be circumcised or he couldn't observe Passover without circumcision (according to Torah)?

How do you figure using 1 John 3:4? It says:

"Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law."

What does this have to do with circumcision?

Also where does it say one has to be circumcized to eat of the Passover?

If the OT was OLD and done away with then why circumcise your child? Yes I have heard the medical reason but many agree that isn't the 'sole' purpose it is 'faith' based which suggests OT.

I would say most are NOT faith based. It wasn't in our case anyway and most people I know that have done this have no religious ties at all. So it would be for medical and culteral reasons rarely for religious ones.

Galatians 2:11-21
Is again talking about salvation

Yes. Galatians is about answering the question...how can men (sinful by nature) come to God (holy by nature)? Paul answers this in this letter. There is only one way.....accept the salvation God's grace makes available thru Christ's death and resurrection. Forget about merit-salvation thru obedience to the law of Moses. Man is too weak by nature to accomplish self salvation or self sanctification. The Judaizers (Jewish Christians) were teaching that such works are necessary and that Paul's gospel was not correct. He was constantly having to affirm that he was a genuine Apostle (1:1) but they didn't believe it. Paul answered them by proclaiming the doctrine of justification by faith plus nothing and of sanctification by the Holy Spirit not the Mosaic Law.

All theologies that teach salvation by faith plus human effort are forcefully negated by this great letter.

138

lulapilgrim

on Nov 01, 2007

Lula POsts:

There was much confusion and controversy between Christian Jews and Gentiles over whether the Mosaic rites and precepts (in this case circumcision) are still necessary for obtaining salvation.

AD posts:

Agreed circumcision was NEVER about salvation! Circumcision is a 'sign' of the covenant. Circumcision is directly linked to inheritance, Passover and land owning in Torah.

I always thought circumcision was one of the ceremonial rites necessary for salvation. Perhaps that's because I relate it to Christian Baptism which according to Christ is necessary for salvation.

Anyway, here is my thinking on it.

First of all, circumcision was instituted by God and practiced from the beginning by holy Israelites exclusively for religious reasons.

Jews circumcised because of the declaration of Moses that the male who is not circumcised "that soul shall be destroyed out of his people" Gen. 17:14.

Granted, circumcision was enjoined in the covenent of God with Abraham which promised him and his descendents the Messiah. It signified citizenship of the male child in the nation of God's chosen children just as the Christ instituted Sacrament of Baptism (which displaced circumcision) signifies citizenship in the kingdom of the Messiah. Circumcision essentially was the consecration of the children of Abraham to the God of Abraham.

This is what I was referring to earlier. St. Paul and the other Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem decided that circumcision, as a religious ceremonial requirement ended with the institution by the Messiah of the priesthood in the New Covenant. St. Paul wrote, In Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith that worketh by charity."

139

lulapilgrim

on Nov 01, 2007

AD posts:

Galatians 2:11-21
Is again talking about salvation. Salvation never has and never will come through works through Torah. Salvation came and comes through a blood sacrifice and faith.

In the Old Covenant, salvation came through blood sacrifices and faith in God of Abraham.

God ordained sacrifices to be the center of divine worship under the OLd Law. what was sacrificed was given to God and had to be wholly consumed in His honor. The victims (lambs) were killed and burnt and wine was poured out, and incense was burnt.

The bloody sacrifices were sacrifices of vicarious expiation, and for this reason the person offered laid his hands on the head as a token as he laid his sins on it and sacrifice as a substitute for himself. By these sacrifices taught men that they depended absolutely upon God and owed Him worship and thanksgiving. They also were roused that they were sinners before God and owed satisfaction to the DIvine Justice and they themselves couldn't make satisfaction, but required a High Priest.

These bloody sacrifices were types of the one holy and most world redeeming Sacrifice of Christ. All the sacrifices of the OLd Law found their fulfillment in the Sacrifice of Christ.

So in the New Covenant, salvation comes through Christ's blood Sacrifice and faith. His had infinite efficacy to blot out all sin and win grace for all men. Christ's Sacrifice had infinite efficacy becasue Jesus Christ is also true God, and so able to make infinite satisfaction to the Divine Justice. The Sacrifice of Christ was a true holocaust becasue He shed all His blood and was a sin-offering in the highest sense of the word, becasue it took away the sins of the world and cancelled the debt of man.

It was the greatest of peace-offerings becasue it reconciled heaven to earth, and brought peace to the world. Since our Lord offered Himself as a Sacrifice, the typical sacrifices of the Old Law have lost all efficacy and all legitimate existence.

Salvation came I agree with all if by blood sacrifice is Christ death on the Cross.

140

lulapilgrim

on Nov 01, 2007

Ask any Jew about why they go to the wailing wall? It was because of the sacrifices that they found atonement for sins.

Yes, I've read about the Temple, the festivals, the priestly office was hereditary in Aaron's family, the blood of the sin-offering was offered on the mercy seat, even of the vestments worn and what they meant.

But today, modern Judaism is without all of that. No priesthood, no sacrifices, so how do modern day Jews find atonement for their sins? Just curious.

141

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Nov 01, 2007

In the Old Covenant, salvation came through blood sacrifices and faith in God of Abraham.

Not quite Lula. It's the faith and works thing you have on your mind.

Salvation comes the same way in the OT as it does in the NT. Faith. It all boils down to faith.

Go back to read about Abraham. He's called the father of Faith yet the sacrificial system wasn't even instituted yet. He was found "righteous" before God. He had not given or done any sacrifices at that time. That wasn't instituted until later with Moses.

The sacrifice that you're speaking of was for atonement. They were to atone for their sins on the Day of Atonement, it didn't bring them salvation but only made resitution for their sin. Sin brings separation between us and God. All of this was a shadow of the real thing to come when Christ, the reality, would be the final atonement for sins, (Col 2:16-17 Hebrews 9-10).

The Day of Atonement was the most important of all the ordinances given to Israel because on that day atonement was made for all the sins of the entire congregation as well as for the sanctuary. It took place on the 10th day in the month of Tishri (7th month). It was one of only three required fasts in scripture. It was a very Holy Day and still is for many Jewish people today.

142

Adventure-Dude

on Nov 01, 2007

Exodus 12:42-51

It is a night to be observed for the LORD for having brought them out from the land of Egypt; this night is for the LORD, to be observed by all the sons of Israel throughout their generations.
43 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: no foreigner is to eat of it;
44 but every man’s slave purchased with money, after you have circumcised him, then he may eat of it.
45 “A sojourner or a hired servant shall not eat of it.
46 “It is to be eaten in a single house; you are not to bring forth any of the flesh outside of the house, nor are you to break any bone of it.
47 “All the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this.
48 “But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.
49 “The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”
50 Then all the sons of Israel did so; they did just as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron.
51 And on that same day the LORD brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts.

My point is that sin is the transgression of the Torah and I just pointed out that his partaking of Passover WITHOUT being circumcised would classify as sin.

143

Adventure-Dude

on Nov 01, 2007

This is what I was referring to earlier. St. Paul and the other Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem decided that circumcision, as a religious ceremonial requirement ended with the institution by the Messiah of the priesthood in the New Covenant. St. Paul wrote, In Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith that worketh by charity."

Again I respectfully disagree here. It was an issue of salvation through circumcision. I don't recall them denouncing them specifically the importance of circumcision. Since Jesus became our sin sacrifice we have salvation through him. But as I mentioned before circumcision has never been linked to salvation. This is the mistake the individuals in Acts 15 where they were preaching, be circumcised so that you can be saved. I recall NOTHING in Torah ever suggests that.

144

Adventure-Dude

on Nov 01, 2007

But today, modern Judaism is without all of that. No priesthood, no sacrifices, so how do modern day Jews find atonement for their sins? Just curious.

Just as they did in the days without the Temple. Belief that through their prayers and repentance they might receive grace. I believe this is written in one of the prophets but I am not certain of which and where.

145

Adventure-Dude

on Nov 01, 2007

Go back to read about Abraham. He's called the father of Faith yet the sacrificial system wasn't even instituted yet. He was found "righteous" before God. He had not given or done any sacrifices at that time.

Abraham did several sacrifices. In fact we have a famous story of him taking Isaac on top of the mountain (aka The Akedah) in Gen 22. So I may be missing your point here KFC.

146

Adventure-Dude

on Nov 01, 2007

It was one of only three required fasts in scripture. It was a very Holy Day and still is for many Jewish people today.

I only know of ONE required fast in scripture. The other ones my understanding are Rabbinically observed or suggested. If I have missed the other two please feel free to correct me. Thanks.

147

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Nov 01, 2007

Abraham did several sacrifices. In fact we have a famous story of him taking Isaac on top of the mountain (aka The Akedah) in Gen 22. So I may be missing your point here KFC.

I'm specifically referring to Gen 15:6 which says:

"And he BELIEVED in the Lord; and he counted IT (salvation) to him for righteousness."

The word believed is "aman" (interesting huh?) and means to lean whole weight upon.

So after this time, 14 years later (17:23) Abraham was circumcised. It was AFTER that that he attempted to give his son to God for a sacrifice.

Paul speaks about this in Romans 4 when he wrote about Abraham's faith apart from circumcision and apart from the law. Obviously both happened AFTER Abraham was counted righteous before God.

Thanks AD on the Exodus 12 piece. Now that you bring it up I remembered it. But I still have a hard time putting that with 1 John specifically. I look further into John and see...

"all unrighteousness is sin"....1 John 5:17a

I only know of ONE required fast in scripture. The other ones my understanding are Rabbinically observed or suggested. If I have missed the other two please feel free to correct me. Thanks.

The required public fasts that I'm referring to was Day of Atonement, the day before Purim and the ninth of AB, commemorating the fall of Jerusalem.

So yes while I know that God only proclaimed the Day of Atonement as a Fast Day but these two others were also very big and considered public fasting days. One is in the book of Esther and the other...I have to hunt for...Jeremiah? I like to say that God is a God of feast days, not fast days. Most of the fasting comes about because we want to not because we're being told or made to.

148

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Nov 01, 2007

Yes it all boils down to belief outside of external ceremonies and works. David realized this when he wrote:

"Sacrifice and offerning you did not desire, mine ears have you opened, burnt offering and sin offering has thou not required." Psalm 40:6

David realized that God wants his heart. In effect David in this psalm was saying "here I am Lord to do what you would have me to do because I do it from my heart." It's not about externals but internals.

There are many scriptures you could be referring to AD...maybe this one from Micah:

Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings with calves of a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed thee O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God. 6:6-8

Moses said the same thing in Deut 10:12. This is repeated all thru scripture. It's not about the externals, but always about the internals. It's not about outward show and robotic obedience. It's about loving God with all heart, soul and mind so much so that you would do anything for him realizing who he is and what he's done for you.

149

Adventure-Dude

on Nov 02, 2007

refute your assertion that St.Paul continued practicing Old Covenant Judaism after his conversion to Christianity.

Lula,

I have listed several verses that support my assertion that Paul DID observe and continued to observe Torah after his 'conversion' which were HIS words not mine. My conclusion is either I am to believe Paul kept Torah or he is a liar.

150

Adventure-Dude

on Nov 02, 2007

It's not about outward show and robotic obedience.

KFC, you and I are in very much agreement here. Torah and a relationship with G-D was never about legalistic observance (aka robotic obedience) it was first faith and then adhering to HIS instruction.

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