I see this as I do in our modern day system. If I am given a ticket for speeding then my 'written offense' is the ticket not the law. I received the writ against me because I broke the law of the land.

It was our disobedience that we receive a writ against us (by the two witnesses of Heaven and Earth Deut. 30:19). For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23, Cross Gen 2:17). With out the shedding of Blood there can be no remission of sin (Heb 9:22 cross Lev. 17:11).

Jesus paid the penalty for my sin at Passover about 1,974 years ago. It HIS blood that is paying the price of my sin when I ask for forgiveness.

I like things to be clear.

[stickler on]

Technically speaking I have said Paul neither added nor subtracted Torah stating that upheld and upholds Torah.

With all due of respect it is you I am trying to get a clearer understanding from. If the 'Old Law' as you say was a phase then what about:

-Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant (Ex 31:16).
-It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood (Lev. 3:17).
-And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even (Num. 19:21).
-And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations (Gen 9:12)

And for the Grand Finale!

-One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD (Num 15:15)
-And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month (Lev 23:41).

What does 'for ever' mean to you Lula?

The Hebrew word in the previous verses is 'Olawm' with the Strong's definition:

alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Compliments of biblebrowser.com

It is hard to imagine that these ideas and concepts coexist in the same huamn's brain.

The Law died, no longer necessary And God wants us to obey it to free us from our sins. Ooh .... and Christ removed our sins by his Crucification and by his blood.

what a contradiction !!!!!

I know you're addressing Lula AD but can I interject here? I'm hoping you're saying ok...lol. I'll take your first entry and your last.

31:16

The Sabbath was made a sign of God's unique relationship with Israel as his own people. The importance of this sign is seen in the insistence of later prophets that Sabbath keeping was an indication of the spiritual condition of the people (Jer 17:19-27, Ezek 20:12-24).

Now if you go back to where the Sabbath was first given to Israel 20:8-11 you'd see in v 11 the word for (waw). This verse explains why they were to keep the Sabbath.

The Sabbath served as a holy day and a day of rest for both man and animals commemorating God's rest after his work of creation. The Jews celebrated God's finished work of creation and the Christians God's finished work of redemption. That's why the Christians started to celebrate on the Lord's Day or the First Day of the Week. The Sabbath was NEVER given to the Christians. Never. In fact this is the only one of the 10 Commandments not repeated after the day of Pentecost.

Christ was the reality of the shadow of the OT Sabbath. Christ is our Sabbath. He is our rest. Come all that are heavy burdened, I will give you rest he said.

Paul said in Romans 14:5:

"One man esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

In this whole section in Romans Paul discusses the proper attitude Christians should have toward each other in debatable areas of conduct. He says that we are not to judge one another in such matters because God has received both the weaker and stronger believer because we can differ in good conscience and because we shall all be judged by God.



I did a wonderful study (still have the notes) spending a whole year or more studying the seven feasts of Lev 23. I used both a Christian and Jewish source to get both sides of this. It was very interesting probably the most interesting of all my studies combined. In these seven feasts spoke the whole redemptive career of Christ. Four fulfilled the last three not yet. Have you seen this to be true AD?

This Autumn feast will be celebrated during the Millennium and I believe as it says here forever. You can see this in Zech 14:16. You can see there all the nations Jews and Gentiles will celebrate this then.

KFC,

Do you believe Paul observed and taught that Sabbath is on first day or on the seventh day?

If so then based on your words, Paul contradicts himself and makes himself either untrustworthy or worse a liar (speaking with a forked tongue).



I see Messiah in the spring feasts, I am in agreement with you here. Where I know we disagree is....

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me (Luke 22:19).

Luke records this account of Passover.

My take is that Do is an active verb. The question here is do what?

I believe KFC we had a not quite so in depth discussion about this a while back. Jesus was observing Passover a feast that is perpetual (Lev 23:21 regarding all feasts).

In the Passover Seder the third cup is about redemption Jesus' blood redeeming us from sin. The fourth cup in a seder is the cup of Messiah's return to us to take us out. This is the cup the Jesus was unable to drink from because it couldn't be fulfilled yet (since we still be here).



Here's what I perplexes me the most about you KFC. You said earlier that the Torah is done away with but NOW you are telling me that the fall feasts (Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles) are not fulfilled.

-Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (Matt 5:17).
- For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (nomos), till all be fulfilled (Matt 5:18).

You just said that ALL is not fulfilled but earlier you did.

AD,

Now with this latest, you are attempting to parse out my every word so that you can somehow make your point that St.Paul kept every word the Torah after he was converted and baptised in the Christian faith.

We've been up, down and all around on this.

The Old Law was the first phase of God's salvation plan for His first chosen people. It was which was completed by Christ's Redemptive work which opened up salvation to all nations.

Those who believe in Christ, which certainly describes St.Paul, are not engrafted into the defunct nation of Old Israel, but rather into Christ Himself, who is the seed of Abraham and the perfection of the Abrahamic covenant. This new covenant people which is the Mystical Body of Christ, includes all nations that follow Him.

The New Testament does not speak of one Old Covenant with stages of development, but rather the dramatic end of the religious ceremonies and rites of OLd COvenant and the beginning of the New and Eternal Covenant in the Blood of Christ. St.Paul teaches infallibly upon this...Gal. 3: 16-27.

In short, the fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham is seen in Christ, who is Abraham's seed, not in the law of Moses.

The purpose of the Law was to teach, to be a pedagogue and to punish transgression UNTIL CHRIST SHOULD COME. The Law could not of itself give life, but it did prepare the way for the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham and the giving of life (sanctifying grace) and faith with the coming of Christ.

That is, since Christ we are no longer under the Mosaic Law, the Pedagogue. For now, faith has come and the baptized who have faith in Christ are the children of God and the heirs to the Abrahamic covenant perfected in Christ.

There is no separate group of unbaptized Jewish children of God living alongside baptized Christians within the same covenantal people. For while the Jewish people remain "most dear to God for the sake of the patriarchs, especially Abraham and Moses, nevertheless, becasue of unbelief they are broken off the olive tree which is Christ. But, "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to grant them in again." Rom. 11:20-23, 28.

It seems to me that St.Paul is saying that by conversion and baptism the Jews can be reincorpated into the New COvenant.

So, of the Jewish race, "there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace" Rom. 11:15, and that remnant consists of those Jews who repent, are baptized, and become as St.Paul.

I'm glad you asked, AD.

You of course are referring to the religious Jewish feasts. They had double meaning for the Jewish people, a retrospective and a prospective or prophetical. The feasts served immediately to remind the people of the wonderful gifts and benefits which they had received from God. They are types of Christian feasts which are also intended to remind us of and make us grateful for the grace of sanctification and redemption.



The significance of the religious Jewish feasts lies in that they were types of the Christian feasts and point towards the manifestation of grace. It is no small thing of the connection of the Jewish feasts of the Pasch and Pentecost and our celebration of Christ's Resurrection and Pentecost.

The Feast of the Tabernacles corresponds to our Corpus Christi, which is solemnized in the open air and is a Feast of Thanksgiving to GOd that Jesus Christ, God made man, has given Himself to be our Leader through the wilderness of this life, feeding our souls with the true Bread from Heaven.

Our great day of Expiation is Good Friday, on which day Jesus Christ was crucified outside the walls for the sins of the world. Even as the Jewish High Priest went into the HOly of Holies on the Day of Atonement, to carry there the blood of the sacrifice, so Christ, "being come an High Priest of the good things to come", by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, ie Heaven, not made with hand, niether by the blood of goats and of calves, but by His own Blood, entered into the Holy of Holies, having obtained eternal redemption. Heb. 9:11-12.

This means that Jesus Christ, having won for us by His death on Good Friday, jusification, sanctification, and salvation, entered into Heaven, where He continually offers the merits of His Passion and Death, to His Heavenly Father.

the great year of Jubilee, which began with the Day of Atonement, is a beautiful type of the Christian era, which will last till the end of times, and in which man, by the atoning death of Christ, is freed from the slavery of sin and Satan, and is once more made heir of the Kingdom of Heaven.

The recurring years of Rest and Jubilee correspond with our years of jubilee, in which the Church throws open her treasures of grace and offers to us the remission of the temporal punishment of sin, so that we may be cleansed from all guilt and made partakers of the heavenly inheritance. So, all of the religious Jewish feasts find their fulfillment in the Catholic Chruch which alone is the true Chruch of Christ, founded by God and foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

Exactly what text are you referring? That might help me answer your question better. Paul taught neither that I'm aware of. We see the early church meeting on the first day of the week. We see many references to this first day. None of the NT writers encourage Sabbath day keeping at all. Not one of them.

I think back to Col 2:16. I just literally finished teaching Colosians to my group here. Here in this section we talked about false teachers who were evidently insisting on abstinence from certain foods and observance of certain days. These Paul says are shadows that have been dispersed by the coming of Christ.



Four expressions were used in Ex 6:6-7 describing His promised deliverance from Egypt. Each is expressed with a cup at Passover.

1. “I will bring you out”
2. “I will rescue you from their bondage”
3. “I will redeem you”
4. “I will take you as My people”


This third cup in Luke you're referring is called the cup of redemption or blessing. This is where the Lord instituted the Lord’s Supper, Luke 22:20 shows it was after the dinner. You mentioned Luke 22:19 but verse 20 is very important

"Likewise also the cup after supper, saying This Cup (third) is the new testament in my blood which is shed for you.

So the Passover has a new meaning now. He called it a "new" testament. Now they were to understand the real meaning of redemption, similar to the time of Egypt. But this redemption was for eternal life. He was redeeming them from sin which leads to death, paying the price they could not pay.

So the answer for us as Christians is we are to commemorate, not Passover but what we now refer to as communion. This new testament or new covenant is God's new arrangement with men based on the death of Christ. He is the lamb that was slain.

To look at this even closer you can look at 1 Cor 11:23-34. It was called the Lord's Supper not Passover. He wrote as often as you eath this bread, and drink this cup you show the Lord's death. He doesn't mention Passover or the once a year celebration that Passover is. There was no "as often" mentioned in the description of Passover. Passover was a required feast for all Jewish males to observe.

As far as the rest of the feasts are concerned. It's really a message for the Jews. I mean it is for us as well but the feasts were given to them back in the day of Moses and will be totally fulfilled in the second coming. It's then that the Jews will have a Day of Atonement like no other. Hasn't happened yet for them.

all that pertains to his first coming. Of course I know and agree there is still more to be fulfilled for his second coming including the meaning in those last three feasts.

Paul makes it very clear in the NT in many places that we are NOT under the law but under Grace. While I believe the law is good and even perfect it's unattainable and God wanted us to realize this. He knew we couldn't keep it. Paul said where sin abounds grace abounds even more.

ADVENTURE-DUDE POSTS: #179



KFC POSTS: #182

Great job interjecting, KFC!

AD,

It's easy to see that the Sabbath is one of those 'sticklers' for you and with good reason for there is considerable confusion regarding the Sabbath-day.

It's often due to the failure to realize that when Almighty God said “Remember the Sabbath-day, to keep it holy” Ex. 20, He DID NOT SAY keep Saturday holy. As you know, Sabbath, Shabbath in Hebrew, means rest, while Yom ha-Shabbath means day of rest and not Saturday, so therefore Sabbath is NOT a specific day be it the 7th or the 1st.

In both Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, God says, “Six days shalt thou labor, and the definite article "The" seventh day merely implies that any day following 6 successive days that the Jews select as their 7th day was satisfactory to God.

The Jewish days were numbered, the only one named as well as numbered was the sabbath-day. The names Sun-day, Moon -day, and Saturn-day, (Saturday), unknown for a thousand years after the Jews began to keep the Sabbath holy, were of Egyptian astrologic origin, which rose from the practice of naming each day by the planet that was supposed to rule the first hour of the 24 hour day. There is no universal cosmic 7th day, so therefore the selection of a 7th day, a sabbath day, is an arbitrary act on the part of man.

That the term sabbath does not relate exclusively to the 7th day of a week, Saturday, is evident in the Pentateuch, in which many other sabbaths are enjoined besides the one that was selected by the Jews to follow after six days of labor. There is the Sabbatical Year, Deut. 15:2, the one of Lev. 25: 1-25, the Jubilee Year, the crowning sabbatical, the Shabbath Shubah, the Penitential Sabbath, that occurs between the Jewish New Year and the Day of Atonement, the Shabbath Hagodol, “the Great Sabbath”, which is celebrated before the Passover, and the Shabbath Nachamus, “the Sabbath of Comfort”.

To properly understand the question of the Sabbath day one must realize, first, that Sunday is no less a 7th day, in the religious sense, than is Saturday though the calendar we use which originated many years after the Jews selected their 7th day, lists it as the first of the week. The Commandment says that any day that follows 6 days of work is to be observed as a sabbath, a rest day.

The 7th day of rest is not of Sinaitic origin. Ages before there were any Jews, before there was such a thing as a calendar, “God blessed the seventh day”; His rest day Gen. 2:3. The Hebrews worshipped the One True God on a sabbath day from the days of Abraham until Moses brought them the Ten Commandments on tablets of stone, a period of 400 years, without having a prescribed sabbath day. This is suggested in the first word of the Third Commandment, “Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.” This word, ‘Remember’ is recognized by Jews as signifying a pre-Jewish sabbath day.

Secondly, the Commandment, “Remember, to keep the sabbath day holy”, was not changed or abrogated, and never rightly can be for it is one of God’s eternal and therefore unchangeable commandments. What Christians did was to change the reckoning of the seventh day, to select a day to supersede the particular CEREMONIAL 7th day of the Jews, which was an exclusively Jewish sabbath day, “a sign between Me (God) and you (Moses) throughout your generations. Ex. 31:13.

The Jews had divine authoritative right to interpret God’s Commandments and to designate the time and character of their ceremonies called for in the Pentateuch, when they were not specifically outlined already. In a word, they spoke with authority, BUT that was in the days when they had an Aaronic priesthood, a sacrifice, a Temple, and a Sanhedrin (high court). Those were the days when the Messiah was to come and thus to fulfill their Divine mission. That day came, when Jesus the Messiah was born, when He instituted a Church to take the place of the synagogue, when He instituted a new priesthood and a new sacrifice such as were foretold in the OT. It was then after the Church began to function in the Cenacle that the ceremonial law of the Jews including their 7th day ceased to be binding, the final authoritative end to Jewish ceremonials being proclaimed in the Council of Jerusalem.

The end of the Jewish sabbath was foretold by Osee 2:2 , the prophet of the kingdom of Israel, who said, “And I (God) will cause all her (Israel’s) mirth to ceased, her solemnities, her new moons, her sabbaths, and all her festival times .

You recommended that MM read St. Justin Martyr who wrote that the Jewish sabbath “was not in force before Moses, so it is no longer needed after the coming of Christ.”

With the end of the mission of Old Covenant Judaism came a change, not in the Commandment, “Remember to keep the sabbath-day holy”, but in the CEREMONIAL day, by the selection of Sunday to supersede the Saturday sabbath of the Jews which was selected by the Jews for the Jews only. What the Sabbath was to the Jews, while they were a “kingdom of priests, a holy nation” Ex. 19:6, the sabbath of the New Dispensation is to the Christians since they became the “chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” 1St.Peter 2:9.

KFC POSTS: #182
I agree KFC. While both the Christian day of rest and the Jewish Sabbath both paid honor to God, they were prompted by different motives. The Jewish Sabbath was in remembrance of God having rested on the 7th day after His completion of creation, and also in memory of the deliverance of the Jews from Egyptian bondage. The Christian “Lord’s Day” was instituted in remembrance of the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah, from the dead, the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles at Pentecost, which marked the beginning of Christ’s kingdom on earth, His Church and as a memorial of man’s freedom from the bondage of original sin through reparation made by Christ for the sin of Adam.

AD POSTS: #183

The naturalism of the Jewish Sabbath in contrast to the supernaturalism of the Lord’s Day of Christians is seen in the celebrations that usher them in.

The Jewish Sabbath is proclaimed with the Kiddush (sanctification). Wine and bread are blessed, one the symbol of joy, the other the symbol of plenty. After sipping the wine, the head of the house passes the wine to the participants of the meal that follows.

In the Catholic Church, the Lord’s Day is celebrated, “from the rising of the sun unto unto the going down thereof” as it was first celebrated by the Apostles and the early Christians in the catacombs, by the ‘Breaking of the Bread” later called the Holy Mass. There, bread and wine, instead of being used as mere symbols of joy and plenty, are transsubstantiated, changed into the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. The priest offers the Blessed Eucharist as an unbloody sacrifice, “a clean oblation” to God and fulfilling the prophecy of Malachais 1: 11.

The Kiddush is a sabbatical service for the spiritual man, to further his temporal existence, the Holy Mass is a sacrificial service primarily to gain for man the eternal promise by Christ to those who partake of His Body and Blood.

And lastly, it was the Apostles, to whom our Lord Jesus Christ gave the power to “bind” and to “loose” met on the first day of the week, the Lord’s Day, to fulfill the requirements of the Third Commandment of God. They were the teaching body of the universal Church Christ established, and they exercised their infallible power of changing the 7th day sabbatical reckoning.

Sunday observances supplemented rather than supplanted Saturday observances of the Sabbath during the first days of the Church. This was due to nearly all the Christians being converts from Old Covenant Judaism. As we have already discussed, their inherited high regard for the ceremonies of the Old Law caused them to go so far as to hold, for a time, that the Gentile converts should be circumcised, insisting that they had to become Jews before they could become Christians. It was the Council of Jerusalem in 49-50AD, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD, which ended once for all the priestly sacrificial services of the Jews, that caused the line of demarcation between the Jewish and Christian 7th day Sabbath,, which was blurred for a time, to be so clearly defined, and universally accepted, that it has hardly been questioned during the ages.



Me too, KFC. This lengthy answer to the Sabbath questions continually propounded may be concluded by quoting St. Paul's warning to the Colossians and he warns us today, “Let no man judge you in meat and drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon or of the sabbaths.”

Sounds like a bunch of replacement theology to me.

Secondly, you have only showed me that either Paul lied or the "Christian" teachings are lying by 'replacing' what is not there (no third direction).

The Sabbath (seventh day) was created for man. G-D almighty was pretty upset with Israel for profaning HIS Sabbath. There is NO record of the Sabbath changing. The Sabbath was a major stickler for G-D throughout the OT. So either G-D changed (which again contradicts scripture) or you are subtracting the 'seventh day' and adding the 'first' day.

I'm not at all advocating replacement theory. I believe God has a specific plan for Jews and a specific plan for Gentiles but in the end they will be joint heirs together with him in the kingdom.



Yes



Absolutely



There is NO record of the Gentiles keeping the Sabbath either. The Sabbath was NEVER given to the Gentiles. It wasn't EVEN mentioned after Pentecost. BTW...what day was Pentecost? Also what was the reason for the two loaves baked with leaven way back in Lev 23:17 celebrating the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost)? Leaven ALWAYS represented sin and they were to rid their houses of it for Passover. Now for the fourth feast they were to bake TWO loaves with leaven? Why? And Why was Pentecost on a Sunday...or first day of the week? Read Lev 2:11.

Acts 15 and Col 2 are very clear. This was not meant to carry over into the New Testament that Christ instituted in the Upper Room. Now the rest of redemption is celebrated. God's redemption in giving of his son was harder than it was for him to create the whole world.

Really?



How is replacing the Seventh Day Sabbath as prescribed by TORAH to the first day of the week NOT replacement theology?



Oh really?

Exodus 20

8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Gentile = meaning in general all nations except the Jews (dictionary.com).
sojourner = derived from STRONG'S 1616. ger (gare)
Or (fully) geyr (gare); from guwr; properly, a guest; by implication, a foreigner
alien, sojourner, stranger. WWW Link



For the readers:
The Pentecost that KFC is referring can be found in Acts chapter 2.

- And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath (Acts 13:42).
- And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, (Acts 17:2).
- And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks (Acts 18:4).

Again I say... Some one is guilty of false testimony here. It is either Paul or the 'Christian Theology.' If Paul is guilty of false testimony then ALL his writings should be BANISHED from the Bible.

What gets me they would rather attack the truth then the lies,heck they would rather attack me as a false teacher then focus on the torah and the prophets which Sh'aul taught out of,not many are willing to call this man of YHVH a liar but yet they do proclaim him as a brain dead liar who did not know how to really preach to the pagans.

The Almighty of the TaNaK is still the Almighty of the Good News,he told us he changes not,what he did was establish various covenants/contracts with those who listened and obeyed the Word of His Voice,he has even reaffirmed a better covenant through establishing His Son as King and High Priest over the World. We can either come and follow him to life or walk our own polluted way unto death.

My advice is quit misusing the words Sh'aul wrote or it is going to lead to your downfall,for this man was never found guilty of Torah violation what he was guilty of was preaching Yehoshua resurrected.
Pastor Terry
P.S. Sh'aul circumcised Timothy but not Titus..hmm circumcision,,people get your heads out of your church and into the whole council of the Word of YHVH.