Terry, with all due respect be careful with your words. No one on this thread is 'attacking' you. The thread that you were 'attacked' on has been dead for awhile now.


Is it really necessary to bring this issue back up?

The Sabbath was NEVER given to the Gentiles. So the Gentiles are NOT replacing anything. Secondly, this was a new Covenant in a line of many covenants in scripture.



Yes, where would Paul preach to a group of Jews congregating? In the synagogue. He went there to preach to them Christ was the Messiah as predicted. He used OT scriptures to show them Christ was who he claimed to be. None of the scriptures you point out are showing or advising that we are under the Law. Most of the NT is specifically saying we are NOT under the law. I can give you many scriptures showing you this including Col 2 and Acts 15 which we have gone over, not to mention quite a bit of Romans and Galatians.

The only two things required of the Gentiles as they came into the faith according to Acts 15 is to avoid idolatry and sexual immorality v19-29. Not one writer to the Gentiles advocated

Well then you are if you are insisiting that we are still under the law. Paul is not guilty. Acts is a historical chronicle of the happenings in the early church. Not once in scripture will you see Paul say we are to keep the Sabbath. Can you show me?

I have no problem if one wants to keep the Seventh day as their special Sabbath day, but to preach and teach that we are mandated to keep this is wrong and is what the Judiazers were doing condemned by Paul in Galatians especially. To mandate this is to walk on the treadmill of works.

"Christ is become of no effect to you whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace." Gal 5:4

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28.

The law condemns us as it points to Christ. Our rest isn't in a day, it's in a Savior. He is our rest. That's why Paul said this in Col 2:16-17

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of a holyday or of the new moon or of the sabbath days; Which are a shadow of things to come but the body is of Christ."

To back up what I said here AD:

Acts 20:7:

And upon the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them.....

This became the regular day of worship for Christians in remembrance of Christ's resurrection on Sunday. Think about it...if you are always celebrating on Saturday (7th Day) when do you celebrate his resurrection (First Day of the Week)?

1 Cor 16:2

"Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him that there be no gatherings when I come."

The Christian's giving is to be done regularly on Sunday and into a private fund at home from which fund he makes distributions and in proportion to God's prospering.

KFC, I already showed this to you in Post #190.



Did you forget these 19 verses?

ALL after Pentecost:

Acts 15:21 - For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.
Acts 22:3 - I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city educated under Gamaliel , strictly according to the Torah of our fathers, being zealous for G-D just as you all are today.
Acts 23 - I have walked according to Torah.....I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees.
Acts 24:14 - believing everything that is in accordance with the Torah and that is written in the prophets.
Acts 25:8 - I have committed no offense either against the Torah of the Jews or against the Temple.
Acts 26:22 - I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said.
Acts 28:17 - Brethren....I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers.
Romans 2:13 - For it is not the hearers of the Torah who are just before G-D, but the doers of the Torah will be justified.
Romans 2:26-27 - If the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Torah, will not his uncircumcision? and he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Torah, will he not judge you who through having the letter of the Torah and circumcision are a transgressor of the Torah?
Romans 3:31 - Do we then nullify the Torah through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.
Roman 7:12 - So then, the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Romans 7:14 - For we know that the Torah is spiritual
Romans 7:22 - For I joyfully concur with the Torah of G-D in the inner man.
1 Cor 7:19 - What matters is the keeping of the commandments of G-D.
1 Cor 11 - We see Paul partaking in Passover (which is what the Lords supper was all about).
Galations 3:24 - Therefore the Torah has become our tutor to lead us to Messiah so that we may be justified by faith.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of G-D; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Messiah Jesus for good work of Torah, which G-D prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
1 Timothy 1:8 - We know that the Torah is good, if one uses it lawfully.
1 timothy 6:14 - Keep the commandment (Torah) without stain or reproach.

I have highlighted the words of Paul that directly contradict what you said for our readers convenience.



If I'm guilty of anything, it is insisting that Paul's words speak for themselves. I am only giving you scriptures and letting Paul's OWN words do the talking. I gave you 19 references where Paul (after Pentacost) supports Torah observance (above). You say you can give me MANY references where Paul says the Torah is done away with. That makes Paul a liar. Plain and simple.



On the 3rd day of Matzot (or 18th of Abib/Nisan) which was April 6th this year. Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover (using biblical days of evening until evening the next day). He arose on the third day of Matzot (as it begins on the day after Passover).

Unlike Easter (April 8, 2007), Passover is based upon the New Moon in the spring whereas Easter is based upon the sunday on or after the Vernal Equinox.

No, what you showed me was there was to be no work in a Jewish Household during the Sabbath day. Nobody even the animals were to be working. That is NOT giving the Gentiles a Sabbath Day. The Sabbath was given to the Jews, not the Gentiles and you cannot show me in the NT where it was something the Gentiles had to adhere to. Can you?



No, some I addressed. Remember? I mentioned Paul going into the Synagogue on the Sabbath because that's when the groups gathered to hear the scriptures. On Sunday, they were working. Did you not read about the young lad that fell out of the window when Paul was preaching? Why? Because the early church would meet at night on Sunday, the first day of the week (Lords Day) because they worked all day. Acts 20:7-9.

I'll take a few you put down ok?



In context beginning with v19 we see James puts down a verdict. The Judizers were insisting that the Gentiles had to follow the law if they were to come into the faith. A big commotion ensued and James finally said "Wherefore my sentence is that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God But that we write unto them that they astain from pollutions of idols and from fornication and from things strangled and from blood." Then goes on to the next verse which you put above.

Your verse 21 DOES NOT preach the Gentiles are to keep the Sabbath. The clear verdict from James was that Gentile converts need not to be circumcised. In order to promote peace between Jewish and Gentile believers the Gentiles were asked to abstain from any practice abhorrent to Jewish Chrisitians. The Jewish Christians would then socialize with them. Then all the letters went out explaining all this with the verdict repeated in v29. These two things were the only lifestyle change the Gentiles were asked to make. Nothing about the Sabbath was required of them.

Did you notice what else was put into the letter (v24)?

"Forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words subverting your souls saying, You must be circumcised and KEEP THE LAW; to whom we gave NO SUCH COMMANDMENT."

Ok, moving on to Acts 22:3. You wrote:



Now how does this prove the Sabbath is to be kept today? Paul was arrested. His defense was to go back explaining his background to these Jews. The Jews laid their hands on him to arrest him. WHY? Because he was teaching AGAINST the law. Go back to 21:28 and hear what the Jews were crying out against Paul.

"crying out Men of Israel help; This is the man that teaches ALL MEN every where against the people AND THE LAW and this place...."

So Paul was almost killed in the Temple but was rescued by soldiers. He then goes on the defense going back to his upbringing. He tells them he was as zealous, if not more so, than they. He kept the law perfectly he says. He's not telling them they have to continue this...he's telling them his background explaining he was where they are now. Going on he shows them how this zealousy for the law brought on the death of Stephen. So if this is your criteria AD then you're in the same camp as the Pharisees as Paul said he was.

what verse are you referring? all I can say here, to be brief, is past tense is involved. Not present tense.



Who's he talking to? He's talking to Governor Felix in his own defense after being accused in a court of law by the Jews as being an insurrectionist (v5). He was also accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes and desecrating the Temple (v6).

In his own defense starting in v10 and continuing way past your v14 he explains himself. In the verse you pulled he's saying I have always walked and believed with my whole heart all that is written in the Torah and in the prophets.

Well AD I can say that as well. I do too. That is NOT saying that he is still worshipping on the Sabbath. He said plainly he's now following the "way." This was what the early church was first called.



Continuing on to your next quote AD. Now Paul's going before Festus. These law believing JEWS plainly wanted to KILL Paul. They were laying in wait for him, (v3). In v7 we see the Jews made up charges they could not prove against Paul. He then answers with your v8. He was telling the truth. He had committed no offense.

Looking at v18-19 it says: "Against whom when the accusers stood up, they brought none accusation of such things as I supposed; But had certain questions against him of their own superstition and of one Jesus which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive."

Paul once a Pharisee was now a believer in Christ so his new religious beliefs were centered around the resurrection of Christ. Thus the dispute. The Jews were looking at Paul as a trouble maker who needed to be killed. He was teaching AGAINST the law (see Romans and Galatains) and they were losing many to the "way." He needed to be stopped.

So AD, taking your verses out of the context yes, it could appear that you are right. But reading them in context you can clearly see it's not at all what you are teaching. That's why topical preaching can be dangerous. If you take a scripture out of context it's nothing but a pretext. Context is so very important.

KFC POSTS:

Bingo!



Double bingo!

With Christ, the Messiah came decision time for everyone, then and now. You are either with Him or against Him...there is no soft, cushy, gray middle road.

Perhaps now is the time to discuss --- what is Judaizing? I'd say it's an attempt at mixing the Old Law with the New and Eternal Covenant of Grace.

The Christian churches of Rome, Galatia, Corinth, Colosse, Philippi and others were full with Judaizers. It was the subject of the first Council from which Acts 15:5 tells us "But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, 'It is necessary to circumcize them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.'"

We read in his Epistles that St. Paul treated this problem with the harshest of comdemnations.

AD, the religion of the Old Covenant is no more. The end came as the Temple Veil was rent from top to bottom at the moment of Christ's Crucifixion and in 70AD the Temple was completely destroyed within the generation of the Sanhedrin fulfilling Christ's prophecy. Daniel 7 and St.Matt 26. The Jews exclusive power to share God with the nations was gone forever with the destruction of the Temple. Is. 2:2-5, 56. God was making it known that the ceremonies of the ancient law were to be abolished by Christ and Heaven was open to all.

Only in the New Covenant in the Blood of the Savior is the true worship of God to be found. The rabbinicals rituals and the ceremonial laws of the OLd Covenant, being aboolished, now count for nothing, confer no grace, and save no one. Worse, they bring a curse upon those who obstinately cling to them. StPaul warned the Jews of this when he said, "for as many as are under the works of the law, are under a curse." Gal. 3:10. In Hebrews 7:18-19, he says, "there is an abrogation of the former commandment becasue of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law brought nothing to perfection. He went on and said, In saying a new, He (Christ) made the former old. and that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end." I have to conclude that the end came in 70AD.


This begs the question is modern Judaism salvific?

I say no based on Christ's own affirmation that "there shall be one flock and one shepherd." Therefore Christianity, the Church and Judaism cannot be seen as two parallel ways of salvation.

The New Testament doesn't speak of one covenant with two different ways to salvation, but rather the dramatic end of the OLd Covenant and the beginning of the New and Eternal Covenant in the blood of Christ.

I see this article is doing fine while I was away, I am amazed sometimes at how much I learn here.

Thank you to all those that have participated!

christianity is also guilty of being judizers,for a judizer and christian has one thing in common they follow the local yokel pastor then follow the true High Priest and His Word...So many say those who walk as Messiah walked is a legalist,I would rather be a legalist then a illigalist,especially when it comes to the words given for salvation and death.

Hmmm how many ever though being a Illigilist is the right way,it would be like you are ailligal immigrant in his nation wanting to keep your old ways..maybe we need to give this word some more insight,would you rather be a Legalist or a Illigalist?
Pastor Terry

Mark 2:27 - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

It doesn't say to "Jews only" club.

444. anthropos (anth'-ro-pos)
From aner and ops (the countenance; from optanomai); man-faced, i.e. A human being
certain, man.

It was given to man, human kind not to just a small remote group.



Could it possibly be because this was his manner or custom?

Acts 17:2 - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,



Exactly because it wasn't the Sabbath? Thanks for proving my point.



Acts 20:7-12

Verse 7 here which is so often used as an argument for 'Sunday Sabbath'

And upon the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread Paul preached unto them ready to depart on the morrow and continued his speech until midnight (Acts 20:7)

Let's look at 'first day of the week' and 'morrow'

They are meeting on the first day of the week and Paul is leaving on the morrow.

Part I - Meeting on first day of week

3391. mia (mee'-ah) - Irregular feminine of heis; one or first
4521. sabbaton (sab'-bat-on)- Of Hebrew origin (shabbath); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. The interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications

Genesis 1:5 - tells us how to differentiate the days.

"And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

According to the Biblical day the 'first day of the week' would begin the evening after the Sabbath (ie Saturday evening) and remains consistent with the Greek Strong translations.

Part II - Morrow

1887. epaurion (ep-ow'-ree-on) - From epi and aurion; occurring on the succeeding day, i.e. (hemera being implied) to-morrow day following, morrow, next day (after).

our clue here is the root word aurion:

39. aurion (ow'-ree-on)- From a derivative of the same as aer (meaning a breeze, i.e. The morning air); properly, fresh, i.e. (adverb with ellipsis of hemera) to-morrow

This all makes sense with the added part of, "kept on talking until midnight."

So in conclusion Paul here is talking about meeting on Saturday evening and if Sunday was the "new" Sabbath wouldn't he be breaking it by his travels?

KFC said:






Talk about context. You said Sabbath wasn’t even mentioned after Pentecost I showed you several verses that contradict what you said.



Since you bring up Acts 15 for a closer look let’s address the actual issue here.

Acts 15:1 - And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

This is the underlying reason that the Jerusalem Council met. Salvation wasn’t ever given through or by circumcision.

The teaching of these ‘certain’ men was incorrect and needed to be addressed with the Jerusalem Council as these men preaching in Antioch were from Judea. So the congregation sent Paul, Barnabas, and others to Jerusalem (V 2).

Acts 15:5 - But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

The issue wasn’t about keeping the Torah. In fact it can be argued that here is an example of Messiah believing Pharisees. I say this in conjunction with Peter in verse 7.

Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
There is evidence here that the council members were Torah observant and believed in Messiah. Please not the present tense of the verbs.

But back to the issue at hand… The certain men were from Judea and it appears that the congregation needed to clarify who was sending this message and whether it came from the Jerusalem Council.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Here is the Jerusalem’s response to the congregation in Antioch.

Acts 15:1 - … ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Acts 15:24 - Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Please note here WHO is saying they gave no such commandment. The “we” is implied from the Jerusalem Council saying that they never gave the commandment that ye must be circumcised or ye cannot be saved.

Hopefully you can see the issue wasn't about Torah observance here but about refuting what the 'certain men' were preaching as commands that were given by the Jerusalem Council. Then enclosing a note of encouragement to begin moving towards Torah Observance as these are Kosher Laws being mentioned in Verse 29.

Hey MM, we are happy to see you made it back from Florida.

Yes, same here.

AD,

I just want to let you know I'll be away from my desk for a while as fall cleaning must be done.

Thanks for the heads up Lula. This is an incredibly busy time of the year for me at work. It will take me a bit to finish up with KFC's responses before I get to yours.

What I am loving the most is the respectful way that each side is presenting its point of view. This is why I love JU so much.

elie