KFC, I am a Jew. I know Israel had the Sabbath BEFORE the SDA even thought to exist. You seem to keep forgetting that I am a Jew NOT SDA.

Some KEY differences:

I keep the Feasts – SDA do not
I keep the Biblical Kosher Laws – SDA do not (they are vegetarians?)
I live according to Torah – SDA do not
I live by the Biblical Calendar –SDA do not
I do not observe Christmas – SDA do
I do not observe Easter – SDA do
I celebrate Resurrection day on the 3rd of Matzot (18th of Abib) – SDA do not
I celebrate the Rosh Chodesh (the first light after the new moon) – SDA do not
I pray for the peace of Jerusalem – SDA do not
And more differences that I could list.



Did you read what I wrote? Your subjective supposition has no basis.



I’m not arguing that they can’t be separated but as I stated earlier it is a subject of Salvation through circumcision and keeping the law that was NEVER true. It only comes through repentance. Please allow me to re-emphasize verse 24.

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: - Acts 15:24

The JC are telling the congregation in Antioch that they didn’t give such a commandment that corresponds with what the two gentlemen in verse one were saying.

…Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. –Acts 15:1

Subject is whether circumcision is the path of salvation. The JC disagreed saying that they never commanded this.

Lula, I don’t see the Jerusalem council separating themselves from Torah. It seems to me that they were separating themselves from the two gentlemen’s preaching in verse 1. Please note that in my response to KFC (Post #224).


Good discussion though.

I know I come off to strong,never thought of myself as an evangilist much less a shockjock,the reason I put forth my credentials not because I want people to listen to me but to think about doing what I did study the scriptures out for themselves.

As we look at Yahshua's Canon (Hebrew Scriptures), we must examine its foundation through the study of history, culture, and language. Yahshua did not come to create a new religion. Yet we have received one. In fact, we have thousands of different sects of Christianity, over 1500, all claiming "authority" by his name. Let us examine some undeniable facts that will go a long way in proving this point:
Yahshua was an Israelite of the tribe of Yahudah from his birth until his last day upon the earth.
Yahshua was a Hebrew Rabbi (a teacher).
Yahshua's only Canon was based upon "Israelism," found in the Tanakh: Law-Prophets-Writings of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Yahshua never renounced "Israelism;" he did not join or create another, nor form a new religion. To do so would have been a great sin.
Yahshua was never a Christian.
Yahshua adhered to the Festivals established by Yahweh in the Tanakh.
Yahshua adhered to the Sabbath, and kept it as it was originally designed to do.
Yahshua's Apostles were Israelites, they never renounced their "Hebrew roots."
Yahshua's Apostles required converts to adhere to all of the applicable Israelite Commandments.
The Canon of the Apostles was the same Canon that Yahshua used.
The Apostles did not see the need to make any changes in the Israelite Canon even after Yahshua's death.
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/Yahshuasbible.htm

See I get my information not only from history but the scriptures also,how many know that Christianity is a state run religon,it is a religon that was practiced throughout the roman and european empires through force,if you did not keep christianity but practiced the hebrewness of the scriptures you were put to death.
See every command was not only given to the house of Jacob but also to the House of Joseph,we now call the house of Jacob,Judah,and the house of Joseph we call Israel,both houses had the same commands and they were not roman or grecian in any manner.
Matthew 5:17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

See Yahoshua himself told us we must rise above the torah teachers by be doers not speakers of the word.

1 Timothy 1:5 The purpose of this order is to promote love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and from sincere trust. 6 Some, by aiming amiss, have wandered off into fruitless discussion. 7 They want to be teachers of Torah, but they understand neither their own words nor the matters about which they make such emphatic pronouncements. 8 We know that the Torah is good, provided one uses it in the way the Torah itself intends. 9 We are aware that Torah is not for a person who is righteous, but for those who are heedless of Torah and rebellious, ungodly and sinful, wicked and worldly, for people who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral - both heterosexual and homosexual - slave dealers, liars, perjurers, and anyone who acts contrary to the sound teaching 11 that accords with the Good News of the glorious and blessed God. This Good News was entrusted to me;

Acts 15:19 "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God. 20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

See the decision was one of not forcing conversion but teaching and instructing on how to grow in the newness of what they were reborn into being Israelites,just like joining a church they do not force all their doctrines down your throat at first,they take baby steps so you can catch up with the rest of the congregation so you can be one with them,so you can understand what the sect you joined is all about.
Mark 6:2,On Shabbat he started to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They asked, "Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom he has been given? What are these miracles worked through him?

57 times in the N.T. the Sabbath/Shabbat is mentioned and all 57 times showed how Messiah and all the Apostles kept Sabbath,and the Apostles and the converts kept the feast days of Israel.

So if I came off gangbuster style I apologize,its that I talk to so many in different depots of faith and on a open forum I can get to be to much for those who are in doubt about the truth of the christian/mithra system of rome go to your search engines and look for the truth.
Pastor Terry

Thanks AD for further explaining where you are. I'm sorry if I insinuated in any way you were an Adventist, although I knew you were not. I just saw some commonality. While your listing of the differences is interesting it's not all exactly true. Two that come to mind first off is they DO pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and as far as I know they DO NOT celebrate Easter. We never did. They are NOT in attendance on that day. That was one of the reasons I asked how you could celebrate Resurrection Day if your observations were on Saturday.

I agree wholeheartedly your recalling the background of Easter and I'm well aware of the connection with all false pagan activities that stem from Nimrod.



You said the first day of the week starts at Sundown on Saturday right? So the first day of the week could start at say 6pm Saturday night and go until Sunday night at sundown...according to Jewish timing.

Now it says in Acts they met on the first day of the week (could fall anywhere between Saturday Night and Sunday Night)and continued to past Midnight. So this midnight could be Saturday Night at midnight or Sunday night at midnight right?

So that's according to Jewish timing. Roman time started at daybreak. So according to the Romans the day started at 6 am and went until the next day at 6 am. So either way this first day of the week looks like Sunday and could very well be Sunday night.

Since Luke was a Gentile and the writer of Acts, I'm assuming he meant first day of the week (Sunday) as we read in the gospels....after the last Sabbath the first day of the week brought the Resurrection and that it may have started after the workday.



But it's more than that AD. While the main subject was circumcision, as you say, it was made very clear that it was the NOT keeping of the law and circumcision that they were upset over. Twice in that chapter it mentions BOTH circumcision and law, not just circumcision. It's also made quite clear what was asked of these new Gentile converts to adhear to and it was NOT the law. And like I said it goes with the rest of the NT when Paul says we are NOT under the law but are under grace.

Hey KFC, thanks for the response. I'll respond later.

How is the move coming along?

AD,

Let's see if our discussion of the Jews keeping the Torah after they converted is cleared any by examining St.Paul's teaching to the Ephesians 2: 11-22.

Eph. 2:11- 22

“Therefore, remember, that you once, the Gentile (heathens) in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those who by reason of what is called circumcision, an operation in the flesh done by hands---12 that you at that time were without Christ, far from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the promise-laden covenants, without hope of the promise and God in this world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He is our peace, who has made both one, by breaking down the dividing wall of the barrier, the enmity, in His flesh, 15 by making void the law of commandments contained in decrees, with its rules and regulations, in order that He might make the two in Himself a new man, making peace. 16 and reconcile both in one body to God by the cross, killing the enmity in Himself. 17 And he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, 18 for through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone. 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Let’s focus on the meaning of v. 13-16. The Jews and Gentiles become one in Christ is the great overwhelming fact that fascinates St.Paul. Here, St.Paul explains that Christ has along with the Law removed the enmity. He says that “Christ is our peace”. St.Paul speaks first about the cause of division which the bringer of peace has to remove in order to make one out of two separate things.

He speaks of the dividing wall which is a barrier holding them apart which he calls enmity. Notice, he speaks also of the Law with its multitude of precepts. It is obviously considered as the basis of this enmity and therefore it must be abrogated.

The existence of this enmity is attested by a huge number of ancient texts. The Jew could feel only abhorrence for the uncircumcised. Israel alone had been chosen and Israel alone had kept itself pure, at least in principle, from the horrors of the heathen world, idolatry, licentiousness, and the shedding of innocent blood. In face of this corrupt and corrupting heathen world, there was only one thing possible...separation, inward and outward isolation. and the horror felt at the heathen world was part of this inward separation. It was also sustained by a great portion of the express declaration of God’s will, the Law, which with its innumerable precepts, especially about the clean and unclean, claimed so completely the life of the law-abiding Jew, that living along with non-Jews was not possible.

God’s plan to attract mankind to Himself and to re-establish peace included the election of the Jewish people, from whom the Messias would be born, and in that Messias, all the nations of the world would be blessed. Gen. 11:3. He is in fact, called the Prince of Peace, Is. 9:6, Mic. 5:4, However, many Jews had come to regard their election in such a narrow-minded way that they saw it as creating a permanent barrier between themselves and the Gentiles. Some rabbi’s of our Lord’s time despised and even hated the Gentiles. The separation between the two peoples was reflected in the Temple wall which divided the court of the Gentiles from the rest of the sacred precincts. Acts. 21:28. The real roots of separation lay in Jewish pride at being the only ones to have the Law of God and keep it by scrupulous attention to countless legal niceties.

It is understandable that this contemptuous attitude, this markedly exceptional position among the nations, was countered with corresponding hatred. The Law was the bulwark which divided them. If the Law was done away with, the division and the enmity was eliminated.

The Law, however, came from God, and was given in view of binding men in love and obedience to God its author. How was the Law to be abolished without lawlessness taking its place? God found a way. He abolished the Law by causing His Son to fulfill it once for all, to fulfill it far and wide, and away beyond its claims---not in a series of individual performances, but by means of what was the meaning and intention of the Law: obedience and love.

This is what was accomplished and given its unsurpassable expression in the death of the Lord on the Cross. This is what St.Paul means when he says that Christ “in His flesh...(abolished) the Law”---not its meaning, but the Law “with its rules and regulations”.

And Christ has fulfilled this Law in his role as the second Adam, which means for the whole of mankind. From now on there is to be only one way to God, to enter, by faith, and sacrament, into Jesus Christ’s fulfillment of the Law which surpasses anything we could think of as worthy of God and beneficial to mankind.

I'm extremely tired so if I sound like I'm not making sense...I'm probably not...hahah I just think I am.

Hopefully in a few days I'll be back to myself and back on JU rather than just a quick check like it's been the last week or two.

One thing tho.....I'm loving the weather down here. Back in shorts and tees and loving every minute.

231 posts...damn I wish I could churn out an article that collects that many.

~Zoo

Hi Moderateman, (nb. this is NOT a come-to-Jesus-comment.)

Having spent some time listening to lectures by Dr. Donald Carson and I recommend you do, you will find that most of these so called great questions have been long since dealt with. The problem is that often the books that deal with them are so old and out of print, that unless one is actually a Professor in this particular field, with access to a good library, one is pretty much going to get no more than a dribble of information from internet resourses. (A lot of it is unbalanced and off at a tangent...not to say that some Prof's don't do just that...hehehe)

I recently completed a series dealing with this topic and you would not be unwise to get Dr. Carson's commentaries on the Gospel of Matthew and the book of Hebrews. (He is a specialist in OT in the NT.)

Put in another way, there is way too much information that needs to be covered and if I had not retired from the Theological debates (I am still extricating my cloven hooves) I might have made the effort of replying, but to be honest it is quite heady stuff. (Which requires that one read MANY BOOKS...not just the old cut 'n paste stuff, staple diet of the uninformed).

Shalom,
Erik.

ps. I have found his work, profoundly insightful (for an Evangelical hehehe) WWW Link (10. Use of the OT in the NT & 3. Sacred and Sure...were pretty well researched lectures...) I am still working through 'The So-Called New Pauline Perspective Critiqued' - (17) ... it is really meaty stuff but well worth the effort. This one is probably a good one to download... (3 lectures) ... “Hard Texts: Why Does Hebrews Cite the Old Testament Like That?” Lectures at Southern Seminary (18)

It's easy Zoo, just go to Infidels.org

They specialize in overturning everything Christian, sort of the bruised heads of the Internet. Who knows you might be able to hit in excess of 666 a day.

.A.
  

Or, Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by me ...whoops, I forgot.... and the sacrament.' Yeah, don't you just love those modified texts.

.A.
 

So good to hear from you....

Warm weather, palm trees swaying, shorts and tees, huh, you lucky duck! Relax on a lounge chair and take a power nap...then you'll be ready to roll...  

I have been reading the core postings that follow MM and I have found I cannot believe that some posters haven't even read their own excuse to be lawless instead of lawful. I have read postings where someone tried to show the error of the state run christian system and someone will defend romanism real quick and never even read their own excuse to follow the liar instead of the torah keeper.

Let me ask this question without snide remarks,I would like truthful answers,how many have actually studied the roots of their sect,how many have studied the rites of christianity and mithra and have found they are the same religon under guise of a fancy name?
Pastor Terry

Lula posts:

AD posts:

AD posts: # 224

KFC POSTS:

Hi AD,

Thankfully, my fall cleaning is just about complete and I'm getting into the Thanksgiving time groove.

Re: keeping the Torah, I'd say that KFC has succinctly summed it up. Beyond that, you may want to consider my reply #229 concerning St.Paul's teaching to the Ephesians.

AD POSTS:

LULA POSTS:

AD POSTS:



AD POSTS # 204:

This is how I see the Council of Jerusalem's decision and the way it was applied:

Acts 15: 22-29 concern the Jerusalem Council's final decree incorporating St.Jame's suggestions. The Apostles and elders of the Church say in v. 28 that their decision is the decision of the Holy Spirit Himself. In summation, the decision was guided by God so we know it was the correct one.

It is the Apostles and the elders, with the whole Church, who designate the people who are to publish the Council's decree, but it is the Apostles and elders themselves, (the Hierarchy), which formulates and promulgates it. The text contains two parts--one dogmatic and moral (that's v. 28, guided by the Holy Spirit and forever more unchangeable),and the other is disciplinary v. 29. (which can be changed).

The dogmatic part speaks imposing no burden other than what is essential and therefore declares the pagan converts are free of the obligation of circumcision and of the Mosaic Laws, but are now subject to the Gospel's perennial moral teaching on matters to do with chastity. Again, this part is permanent Gospel and therfore permanent Catholic Chruch teaching becasue it has to do with a necessary part of God's salvific will it cannot change or be changed. Period.

The diciplinary part of the decree lays down rules of prudence which can change, which are temporary. It ask Christians of Gentile background to abstain, in charity (love) towards their brethren, Jewish Christians, from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood and from meat of animals killed by strangulation. The effect of the decree means that the disciplinary rules contained in it, although they derive from Mosaic Law, no longer oblige by virtue of that Law, but rather by virtue of the authority of the Church given by Christ to His Apostles, which has decided to apply them for the time being.

What matters is not what Moses says but what Christ says through the Holy Spirit to His Church. St.John Chrysostom wrote: The Council seems to maintain the Law in force, because it selects various prescriptions from it, but in fact it suppresses it, because it does not accept all it prescriptions. It had often spoken about these points, it sought to respect the Law, and yet establish these as coming not from Moses, but from the Apostles through guidance of the Holy Spirit.