Regardless, there are some people who see your title, read your article, and say, "Hey, that's a good point." Then they read LW's portion, "That's a good point to. This Jesus thing is looking bad." Then KFC makes some points, "Oh, that's how it works. Jesus is looking better..." etc. The argument is not for your benefit, unless you want it to be. That YOU won't convert does not mean we aren't getting somewhere. I only want people who want to be Christians to be Christians. All others need not apply. But the discussion will be read by more than just you and me and KFC and Lula and LW. There are some undecideds that may stop by.

Ok I understand, If you folks want this to be a come to Jesus article I shall let it be. I will no longer argue about it. How is that for fair?

Any article focusing on Jesus is going to be a come to Jesus article as long as the truth is included.

MM WRITES:




Yes, MM, it's good and fair.

AND SO LET THE DISCUSSION RESUME......

LW POSTS: #19

LW POSTS: #36




LW POSTS: #36


Properly understood, Isaias' prophecies of chapters 7 through 13 were fulfilled in Christ.

In Isaias 6, God calls Isaias for his vocation as a prophet by having the seraphim angels purify his lip's with a burning coal removing all his sins. Isaias 6:9-10 tells us the message Isaias is to deliver is hard hitting and full of paradoxes. It's to tell God's first chosen people that if they fail to listen to the word of God (that could soften and move their hearts), their hearts will be blinded; they won't see things right; and because of that the sinner will feel no heed to take stock of his position and be converted. Christ preached the fulfillment of Is. 6:9-10 in St.Matt. 13:13-15, St.Mark 4:11-12. Same of St.John 12:27-41 and St.Paul also uses Isaias to reproach the Jews of Rome for rejecting the message of the Christ Acts. 28:23-28.

The people's hardness of heart will merit severe punishment, but all won't be lost: a holy seed will remain and from it the tree will grow back again v. 11-13. Make no mistake, these verses carry a message for people of all ages.

First, the series of Isaias' prophecies, Chs. 7 through 13 is called the Book of Immanu-el. Immanu-el----that's the first hint he's prophesing the Christ because its climax is taken to be the mysterious announcement of a Messiah-Savior, called "Immanu-el", which means "God with us" 7:14.

Ch. 7 of the Immanu-el prophecy begins with the announcement of a God-given the sign of salvation and contains the passage you refer to about the young woman (Virgin) who shall conceive and bear a son. The sign has a double meaning.
Ch. 7 is the account of of Isaias' meeting with King Ahaz in whcih the king is in 2 minds as to what to do in face of the pressure to join the coalition against the Assyrians made up of Israel (aka Ephraim), whose capital was Samaria, and Syria (Aram) whose capital was Damascus.

Isaias message is a warning to Judah that it should put its trust in God, belieing in His word, and not take refuge in any political alliance. It ends abruptly with the threat that if Ahaz fails to listen, their downfall will soon follow. It says that Isaias' son, Shear-jashub, which means "a remnant shall return", is present at his exchange with Ahaz. This presence implies that in some way God will ensure the permanent survival of the people, that is there will always be a remnant who will come back to the Lord and recover what has been lost.

The Lord offers Ahaz a sign that he has no reason to fear the threats made by the kings of Syria and Israel: a maiden will conceive and bear a son who will be called Immanuel, within a few years before the boy reaches the age of reason, the 2 kingdoms that Ahaz fears will be laid low, and Judah will enjoy even greater prosperity. Isaias' words taken at the time literally would have been easy for all to understand.

And second, the Revelation of Christ and salvation through Him is developed from the 3 elements of v. 7:14, namely, the mother, the child, and His name, Immanuel. All the Hebrews of the day understood what was meant. The mother is a maiden, a young woman who has had no children previously. In the 2nd century BC, when OT Scripture was translated from Hebrew to Greek, it is in this context the word, "maiden" was translated to "virgin". Taken forward, St.Luke 1:28-38 tells that the angel Gabriel greeted Mary as "full of grace"; that the Lord was with her and that she was blessed and would conceive a son and name him Jesus. The Blessed Virgin was very puzzled at this and asked, "How shall this be done, because I know not man?" Gabriel explained that the conception would be through the power of the Holy Ghost...and she agreed that it be done.

By setting her pregnancy in the context of a sign given to the king, the point is that something quite important is involved.

The child, the son is the most important part of the sign. If the prophecy refers to Ahaz’s son, the future King Hezekiah, it would be indicationg that his birth will be a sign of diinve protectin, bvecause it will mean that the dynasty will contineu. If it refers to another child, not yet known, the prophet’s words would mean that the child’s birth could manifest the hope that “God was going to be with us” and his reaching the age of discretion, v. 16, would indicate the advent of peace. The Child’s birth would then be the sign that “God is with us.” The New testament completes the Old and the deeper meaning of these words finds fulfillment. Mary is Virgin and Mother, and her Son is not a symbol of God’s protection, but God Himself who dwells among us.

The word “Immanuel” is a prophetic indication of the revelation that the child’s birth implies, just as the names of Ahaz’s sons also contain revelation. Shear-jashub means “a remnant shall return” 7:3, and Mahershalal-hash-baz meanisn “the spoiling speeds, the prey hastens”. 8:1-3. In the New testament the name “Immanuel” conveys the joyful news that Jesus the Christ is truly “God with us.”

LW -

My response to you was and will continue to be to seek further information before I accept what you've said. It was taken into consideration. I have not yet come to a point where I have the information to respond, and I may not ever, as I do not speak Hebrew. If the Bible is mistranslated, I have to rely on other people to tell me that. As for the other prophecies mentioned, I will continue to look into them.

I wanted to know what a Rabbi had to say on the subject, and as my Rabbi contacts are currently nil, I decided to just ask MM instead. I was curious, because how can a believer in the Torah say Jesus was not the Messiah if He fulfills all the prophecies? So I wanted to know what they say he didn't fulfil. You answered that question, so I stopped asking about it.

If I had a counterpoint I would have offered it, but since I do not I didn't post "I have no counterpoint for that" because I may have one tomorrow. But, now that you've brought it up, at the current time I don't have a counterpoint.

I get into the frey often enough. I felt that the question, "Which prophecy didn't Jesus fulfill" was a good one and needed an answer, so I asked for one and, in the end, didn't even get an answer from MM. And you jump on me for letting informed people argue instead of me. He did the same thing, except he started it.

Yes, I have, but wow, I just re-read what I hastily posted, and see that I must really work on my typing skills!   

Listen folks I am not a Jewish scholar.... When My father died I was 14, at this point I went to the roof of where I lived and commited the gravest sin I could, I threw My Tales{SP?} {prayer shawl} My tefalim{sp?} The wraps that go around the right arm and the head, My yarmulke and my Torah off the roof into the gutter, and screamed at G-d Fuck you!! I am done with you! It stayed this way until just a few short years ago {three} when I realized that G-d had not deserted me, I had deserted him and none the less he had his hand on my shoulder all these years while I was playing bad guy. He has kept me alive three times now that I should have been dead, once in Vietnam, once when I was shot to death in 1967 in the streets of NYC and was brought back and just recently in January with the Coma. There must be a reason he has not called me to leave this body and keeps me around, do I know what the reason is? hell no!! Do I understand that I am  A JEW with a proud tradition? yes I do.

So don't expect me to expound on Jewish Torah as I know so little.

Oh, so you're about where I am. The knowing so little part.

yes, But I am learning, studying the Torah, I have always eaten Kosher, But do not keep a Kosher household, due to my wife. {no excuse just fact} I feel the need to feed, a hunger if you must to get closer to G-d.

Your personal story is uplifting because it gets to the very core of our reason for being on this earth in the first place. Each one of us is here for a purpose and realizing this is a step forward in our own personal journey called life.




Ya, MM, we already would have guessed that as you've admitted before this before. Just believing in the Torah, as we do, is common ground.

As I've said before, I believe every word of the Five Books of Moses (the Torah) to be the inspired word of God. Where the fun comes in and the sparks fly is in its interpretion and applying that to our lives today and our respective beliefs. From your standpoint according Mosaic Judaism with the practice of modern Judaism and from mine according Mosaic Judaism with the fulfillment of its prophecies in the birth, life, works, death and resurrection of the promised Messiah. To me, I see it clearly as this screen in front of me, that Christianity became the reality, the completion, the fulfilllment of the holy things Mosiac Judaism foreshadowed.




In researching the Talmud and something of Jewish tradition, I read this quote from Vallentine's Jewish Encyclopedia,

"The mental intensity of Jews, their intellectuality, is very likely an inherited result of studying and memorizing the oral law in pre-Christian times, and the study of the Talmud since then. Judaism is a debating society...the tendency of Jews to enter into interminable discussions, with very little regard for each other's opinions. It is the cause of what Jews call "pilpul" (word connected with pepper) a tendency to indulge in dialectics for dialectics sake, characterized by exaggerated quibbling and hair-splitting."

That's why I guess after reading this, I found it rather odd that you didn't want to continue 'arguing' through this discussion, but now it's more clear since you acknowledge that you aren't strong on expounding on the Torah.

Well, as far as I can tell, no one amongst us is!

how true,. how true, and kind of you since there has been so much heated debate going on.


Elie, of the tribe of Levi

Did I miss the party?

Ya gotta start somewhere Elie.

Reply By: Adventure-DudePosted: Monday, October 29, 2007 Did I miss the party?

Nah yer a newly wed, yer should be boinking yer brains into mush