Hi Moderateman,

Have you a copy of the Torah otherwise known as the first five books of the Old Testament?

We know that Judaism is a prophetic religion. Its prophecies centered in the coming of the Messias (the Christ) from the tribe of Judah, the house of David, of a Virgin, in the village of Bethlehem.

If you do, look up Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 15. It's the verse in which Moses shortly before he died prophecied the coming of the great prophet Christ. He wrote, "the Lord thy God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation, and of thy brethren like unto me. Him thou shalt hear."

It seems to me that the Christ of the New Testament who Himself said He was God is the one that Moses prophecied. If you disagree, how do you explain that?

The dogmatic expression of belief in one God is the first part of the call of Moses upon Israel to believe and to do things holy in the sight of God.

The Christ came and took this teaching of Moses further than an act of reverent praise, thanksgiving, repentance, or petition to ALmighty God. This proclamation which the Christ called a commandment is an affirmation of belief that the God of Israel is ADONAI, Who is Absolute, Uncaused, One Eternal God, to be feared, loved, honored, and obeyed, a belief which is entirely in harmony with the Catholic concept of God.

So, as far as believing in the same basic construct, I'd say I'm batting one for one with MM.

Maybe someone can support my theory that Jesus was a magician or illusionist. You know how david blaine, the magician, he does all these tricks like turning a cup of coffee into money etc. Maybe jesus did some other illusions like turning water into wine...

Just a thought

Reply By: lulapilgrimPosted: Friday, October 26, 2007 Hi Moderateman, Have you a copy of the Torah otherwise known as the first five books of the Old Testament? We know that Judaism is a prophetic religion. Its prophecies centered in the coming of the Messias (the Christ) from the tribe of Judah, the house of David, of a Virgin, in the village of Bethlehem. If you do, look up Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 15. It's the verse in which Moses shortly before he died prophesied the coming of the great prophet Christ. He wrote, "the Lord thy God will raise up to thee a prophet of thy nation, and of thy brethren like unto me. Him thou shalt hear." It seems to me that the Christ of the New Testament who Himself said He was God is the one that Moses prophecied. If you disagree, how do you explain that?

I just woke up and do believe that LITTLE whip answered all your questions, I hope now you can see where you have made a huge mistake in following this false Messiah and the religion created in his name and quickly as you can save your soul and switch to Judaism. I only say this out of concern for you eternal soul.

Reply By: Milan MehtaPosted: Saturday, October 27, 2007 Maybe someone can support my theory that Jesus was a magician or illusionist. You know how david blaine, the magician, he does all these tricks like turning a cup of coffee into money etc. Maybe jesus did some other illusions like turning water into wine... Just a thought

Lucifer the great liar has almost  unlimited power on earth, all the miracles that Jesus was credited for Satan could easily have done.

Reply By: little-whipPosted: Saturday, October 27, 2007 Elvis has left the building!

To Much proof Sabrina, yer went and done killed all de beleivers.

Heh, heh.

~Zoo

I do understand why other Christians do speak of it. I'm sure it's offensive to people of differing beliefs, but if Christians honestly believe you'll go to hell for what you believe, wouldn't they be total dicks not to at least warn you of the danger of that hell? Sure, they won't win any popularity contests, but I'm sure the prophets of old weren't too highly admired for telling the Israelites that God is going have them killed and slaughtered all those times. That said, I do think many of them need to learn a little diplomacy when it comes to the subject.

To Much proof Sabrina, yer went and done killed all de beleivers.

not quite so fast. Here's my take on this MM from another Jewish site btw. What are some reasons for beliieving Jesus is the Messiah?

It is important to begin by saying that for one who has already made up his or her mind that Jesus is not the Messiah, no amount of evidence will be convincing. But for those who are honest in asking, the evidence speaks for itself.

When sincerely asked, this question is a good one. After all, there have been false Messiahs in Jewish history. Among the most prominent were Bar Kochba and Shabbetai Zevi. Bar Kochba led a revolt against Rome in the years 132-135 C.E.

During this revolt, one of the most famous figures in Jewish history, Rabbi Akiva, proclaimed him to be "King Messiah." Unfortunately, Bar Kochba, Akiva and thousands of Jews were killed in 135 C.E. when the Romans stormed the stronghold of Betar. Shabbetai Zevi, on the other hand, was a self-proclaimed Messiah. Flourishing in 17th-century Europe, the Shabbatean movement spread among both the common people and the rabbis. But when Shabbetai Zevi was arrested in 1666 by the Sultan of Turkey, he converted to Islam rather than face death. We have been tragically wrong before, so it is not surprising that hard evidence should be sought for believing in Jesus.

The idea of a Messiah is one that is found throughout the Hebrew Bible. There, the Messiah's "I.D." is given to us. Imagine looking up a friend by first locating his country. That would not be enough information, so you would need to ascertain his city, street, and specific number on that street. It would also help if you had a phone number and knew the time at which he would be home.

Similarly, the Bible tells us the "I.D." of the Messiah. His ethnic background, place of birth, time frame of his arrival and other identifying characteristics are given. These "credentials" enable us to identify the Messiah, and to recognize imposters.

Of course it might be objected that if these "credentials" are so clear, why didn't most Jewish people believe in Jesus, and why were they so taken in by false Messiahs like Bar Kochba and Shabbetai Zevi?

To understand this, one must realize that by the time of Jesus, the Messianic hope had become greatly politicized in the minds of the people. They were seeking deliverance from the tyranny of Rome. Although the Scripture spoke both of the sufferings and of the victories of the Messiah, the victorious aspect had become uppermost in the minds of the common people because of the Roman domination. This "lopsided" view of the Messiah has stuck with Jewish people, and the politicization of the Messianic hope has continued. Thus the hope of a political rather than a spiritual Messiah contributes to both the acceptance of people such as Bar Kochba, and the rejection of Jesus in his role as a Messiah.

This is not to say that all Jewish people rejected the claims of Jesus. Far from that being the case, all the first followers of Jesus were Jews. In fact, the rabbis of that time period and afterwards were well aware of the many Messianic prophecies which Christians claimed were fulfilled in Jesus. So for instance, although the Talmudic rabbis concurred that Isaiah 53 was a prediction of the Messiah, by medieval times the pressure from those who applied this prophecy to Jesus was so great that Rashi, that greatest medieval Biblical scholar, reinterpreted the chapter and said it referred to the nation of Israel. This interpretation is maintained today by many Jewish scholars, though it only dates back to the Middle Ages.

What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
Messiah would present himself by riding on an ass: Zechariah 9:9
Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12
In detail as to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The record of this fulfillment is to be found in the pages of the New Testament. But several other factors combine to further substantiate the Messiahship of Jesus.

In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming." he replied, "I who speak to you am he."1 Naturally, that doesn't prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.

Also, Jesus' life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do. Thus, Jesus worked many miracles of healing, bringing wholeness into people's lives, forgiving sin and restoring relationships. In contrast with Shabbetai Zevi, for instance, Jesus carried out the Law of Moses as a devout Jew. And in contrast with Bar Kochba, although Jesus also died, he was resurrected!

The resurrection is a third piece of additional evidence, and it is perhaps the most convincing vindication of Jesus' claims. It is interesting that an Israeli scholar, Pinchas Lapide, has written a book which has attracted no small amount of attention in the Jewish community. The reason is that Lapide has said that the resurrection of Jesus is well within the realm of possibility. After all, he reasoned, the Hebrew Scriptures give a number of accounts of people coming back to life. Why not Jesus as well? Regrettably, Lapide fails to note that the resurrection of Jesus is described in terms that go far beyond the resucitations of the other stories; and, he fails to come to grips with the fact that Jesus predicted his own resurrection, which vindicated his claims to Messiahship.

An assortment of explanations has been offered throughout history to explain away the resurrection as either non-historical ("It never happened.") or as non-supernatural ("Here's how it happened."). But these explanations have not been successful. Run down the possibilities for yourself and see which makes the best sense. Did the Roman authorities steal the body of Jesus from the tomb? Then why didn't they produce it when the word started being spread that Jesus was risen? Or maybe the disciples stole it. But could such a fabrication on their part account for the change in their attitude? Three days earlier they were disillusioned, defeated idealists who had hoped that Jesus would bring in a new world order; could a lie which they knew to be a lie, now account for their hope, their boldness in the face of official persecution, and for the high ethical standards they set?

Or perhaps Jesus never died: he just fainted on the cross and revived in the tomb. This idea was popularized in the book The Passover Plot by Hugh Schonfield. Unfortunately the author overlooked the fact that the Romans pierced Jesus' side, which would have most certainly killed him. Also, there was a contingent of Roman soldiers guarding the tomb as well as a huge stone that blocked its entrance. There was no way that a resuscitated Jesus could have escaped and then convinced hundreds of skeptical eyewitnesses that he had conquered death forever! Or was it all a mass hallucination? It must have been quite a hallucination to be seen by vastly different kinds of people at different times of day in many different places. You might be able to fool one person, but can you fool five hundred who saw him at one time? And unlike the pattern of hallucinations, these appearances of the resurrected Jesus stopped as suddenly as they started, forty days after the resurrection took place.

The only satisfactory explanation is that the resurrection actually occurred, just as the record says. And if that's the case, it's a solid reason for accepting the Messiahship of Jesus.

Finally, Jesus transforms people's lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people's lives. Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, "Man is estranged from the womb." That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in him.

So, between the objective evidence of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and the subjective verification in our own lives--we think there's ample evidence that Jesus was who he claimed to be!

***************************************************************************************************************************************

There's so much more....we've barely touched the tip of the iceburg here.

Link

So here saying you're concerned for my eternal soul, you are urging that I convert to Judaism which you say is the one true faith that you and millions of other Jews believe.

Me, a Catholic, switch to modern day Judaism?

MM, you must pay more attention to truth in labeling for modern day Judaism isn't the one true faith of God that you claim it is. There is only one God and therefore there can only be one religion of God's making. That religion was Old Covenant Judaism and it contained Christianity, the religion that fulfilled or completed it. In OC Judaism, the only religion of God in the ages before Christ, there was the Promise, Christ, and the family of David from which Christ was to come, and did come.

Old Covenant Judaism contained a priesthood of Aaron and Mosaic sacrifices that the Old Testament said would be displaced, as it has been, by a priesthood without genealogy, and a "clean oblation" in place of the bloody oblations of the Old Covenant. Therefore, Catholics hold Catholicism with its Christ-instituted priesthood and Eucharistic Sacrifice, to be Old Covenant Judaism full-blossomed.

I shall pull my points forward and address some of LW' comment in another post so this one won't be too long.

MM posts:

You have me grinning a big grin on this one....too much proof!!??



I'll second that! Proof, what proof? Hint: If you and LW want to counter, it must be with the Torah, or Old Testament, not the Talmud.




KFC posted:

This says it all, KFC. This says it all.   

Actually that was an amused "heh, heh" not a sarcastic "heh, heh."

I'm just watching the fireworks at this point.

~Zoo

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2) Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended. B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities. The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (2) C. TORAH OBSERVANCE The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

 

It says that if the so called Messiah fails to reach even one benchmark One, ONE ONE get it yet? ONE benchmark ONe one one!!!!!!! he CANNOT BE CANNOT BE CANNOT BE the Messiah, Whip showed many Benchmarks Jesus did not reach Many many many but I will settle for ONE ONE ONE..

JYTHIER POSTS:

He can't Jythier because there aren't any.


We have proof of Christ from Old Testament prophecies and their fulfillment.

Christ, the Anointed, the Messiah as the Israelites designated the expected Son of David, was foretold to come as far back as the first era of man. For His coming the Israelites had hoped and prayed throughout the whole history of Isreal. Here are some of the prophecies of His coming that have been fulfilled.

To Eve, God made known that in "the seed of a woman" the serpent's head (mystically Satan and all his servants) would be crushed Gen. 3:15. That "seed" was the Christ child, born of the Holy Spirit St.Luke 1:34-35, "begotten" Psalm 2:7, not made in the natural way.

To Jacob, God made known the the "expected of nations", the Messiah, would come when the "sceptre" (the kingly, tribal, legislative authority) shall have been taken from Judah Gen.49:10. Its fulfilllment was in Christ, Who came when Judea had been reduced to a mere province of the Roman Empire; when Herod, who was not of the house of David, had usurped the throne of David, when the sovereignity of Judah was no more.

To Daniel 9:27, God made known that in 70 weeks of years (490 years), the Messiah, the Anointed One, would come; that He would be slain, and the "abomination of desolation" would take place in the Temple. All these predictions took place in the first century of Christ's era. St.Matt. 24:15.

To Isaias 7:14, God made known more fully than before Gen. 3:15, that the Messiah would be born of a Virgin. This miraculous birth of the Son of God, our Lord, is recorded in St.Matt. 1:23, and St.Luke's Gospels. 1:31-38.

To Micheas 5:2, God made known that the birth of His only Begotten Son would take place in Bethlehem Ephrata. The record of the birth of the Messiah, to whom the shepherds and Kings paid Divine homage is recorded in St.Matt. 2:6, and St.Luke 2:6.

To Balaam, GOd made known that a Star (the symbol of regal power, of glory, the emblem of the Messiah), shall rise out of Jacob Numb. 24:7. upon His coming. It's fulfillment is seen in the Magi, who, guided by the Star, travelled from the East to the Crib of Christ in Bethlehem. St.Matt. 2:1-3.

To David, God made known that the Christ would be "a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedec" i.e. He would be without geneology, offering bread and wine for sacrifice, Psalm 109:4, Christ demonstrated His Melchisedemic mission when, at the Last Supper, He consecrated bread and wine for sacrifice. St. Paul tells us this perfect Priest, and the priesthood He instituted to take the place of the imperfect Aaronic priesthood of Israel. Heb. 7:4-25.

To Moses, God made known that a Prophet would be raised up, whom the LawGiver commanded Israel to "hear". Deut. 18:15. Christ claimed to be that Prophet. St. John 5:45-47.

To Zacharais, GOd made known that Israel's King would come to them, riding on an ass 9:9. This royal prediction was fulfilled a week before Christ traveled on the road to Calvary, when the Jewish populace in Jerusalem hailed their King with hosannahs to the SOn of David. St.Matt. 21:5-10.

To Isaias, God made known in terms clearer than ever before, that the Christ is God Himself, "God Himself will come and save you." 35:4. Isaias called Him the "Emmanuel, God with us." 7:14, God, the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace." 9. He told in detail of the Christ being wounded for our iniquities, being led to slaughter, laying down His life for the sin of the world. 53. The fulfillment of this prophecy is recorded in the Four Gospels.

To Jonah, or rather in him, God typified the great miracle of miracles, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. As Jonah, the prophet, was in the belly of the fish for 3 days and 3 nights, so Christ was in the heart of the earth. He reanimated His Body and rose from the dead on the third day, Jonah 3:5, St.Matt. 12: 38-41. 1Cor. 15:14.

yes, I agree MM. Just one failure wouldn't be from God. God has to be 100%. Moses even outlined that percentage idea in Deut 18 himself. I believe it to be true.

Whip did not show that. I can point by point show you this by using only Jewish prophesies but for the sake of brevity...this would take all night....can you pick just one for me to address?

Just for instance tho.....the Jews returning to their homeland? They ARE returning to their homeland. 1948 is prophecy come true in our lifetime!!!! They had been dispursed for OVER 2000 years and now coming back. And it's continuing. The third temple? Nowhere does it say in OT scripture that Jesus would build it. It just says that it will be built..that's it. But it will be built and plans are being laid right now or are actually even finished for this new temple.

See MM the prophets saw the first coming and the second coming and it was kind of blurred to them. They wrote what they saw in detail but both comings are in view. They did not see the church age. Their prophecy was only only only on the coming Messiah. They had NO idea that when he came their own people would reject him. It's like it was a blip off their radar. Paul speaks about this in Romans.

That's why the Pharisees didn't accept him. He didn't do and liberate them as they had expected. They were looking at 2nd coming scripture and trying to put it with his first coming.

They were perplexed tho. He had the pedigree. His geneology was never in question. He fit the bill. He had the words. He had the works (miracles) and there was division as a result. Some of the Jewish Pharisees like Nicodemus believed him. After his resurrection many more came to the faith. The first converts were ALL Jews. But there was a division as there still is today.

The problem is...they have never been able to explain where the body is. All they had to do was come up with a dead body and it was never done.

Also the most prolific writer of the NT was a Jewish Pharisees. All the writers of the NT were Jews but one. Luke, the physician was the only Gentile to write his book.