Either way, I don't mind people who believe that bad things will happen to me if I don't follow their advice. I only mind people who will _make_ bad things happen to me if I don't follow their orders.

Excellent point and contrast.  I totally agree.

"Isn't the core of Christian faith the belief that Jesus saves those who believe in him? Anyway, atheists can have moral values, they are just not "enforced" by a belief in a god."

And Christians can have immoral values. What does all this mean?

Another core of Christian faith is the belief that we can't force anyone to believe in Jesus and be saved, so we don't require you to. We would just much rather have you in heaven, you know?

For some reason, people wanting others to be in heaven with them is the ultimate wrong.

I have no doubt that this post I have written will be ripped out of context ,with the intent to be used as an attack on Faith and Christianity.

You suggest that Atheists (or non-christians) don't have moral values?

While Cikomyr's statement was not directed towards Troy, it is a good example of his statement.  What Cikomyr quoted:

As a Christian I do not require anyone to believe as I do, with a few exceptions. Don't murder, don't lie, don't cheat on your spouse, obey the laws of the land (ours in the US are based on the Ten Commandments, although liberals don't want you to know that), don't take other people's stuff, etc., you get the idea. Don't do harm to your neighbor or yourself, is usually a good policy. Teaching people to be nice to each other is one of the reasons they nailed Jesus on to two pieces of wood... But I digress.

Condemns no one and draws no judgment on what anyone believes, only what the writer believes.  Perhaps the people that Troy was referring to are not really attacking Christians, as there is nothing in the statement quoted above to attack (unless you do not feel that you should not murder, steal, etc.), but expressing their own doubts about their own beliefs by unnecessarily attacking the beliefs of others through quoting out of context and misrepresentation of what is said?

My understanding is that while Rudy was mayor the abortion rate went down as a result of other actions. Abortion is a result not a cause.

This is an area that I don't understand the Planned Parenthood protesters who are condemning the person who is ALREADY pregnant. Rudy reduced crime and prostitution as well as other areas that may directly linked to the reduction of abortion. I know Sean Hannity mentioned this during his discussion with Dobson.

So if abortion IS a major issue to you this MIGHT be something to take into consideration. Although Rudy supports abortion (through pro-choice), as mayor he did a lot to reduce the 'reasons' for abortion (one may conclude?). Sounds like a potential reason for anti-abortionist to support Rudy if he gets the GOP nomination.

Just my thoughts.

wow gone a few hours and off this goes.

to KFC I am not capable of hating you I do not know you, I would never hate someone for their religion or condemn them to hell for it either.

To larry Kuperman, Right on the money response.

to whip, keep the good stuff flowing my dear friend.

To kingbee, great points about if we let the religious right dictate how we vote, we become another Iran. {paraphrased}

To Ad. As always your contributions are right on the money.

To DocG. I believe you are right about not many men hit and all we hear about is those that do.

To zoo. I never thought you would be a mistreater of the females.

 Andrew Brehm good points!!!

to danielost, every so often you suprise me by an insiteful comment!

To jthyer, I do love the way you have with words.

"Isn't the core of Christian faith the belief that Jesus saves those who believe in him? Anyway, atheists can have moral values, they are just not "enforced" by a belief in a god." And Christians can have immoral values. What does all this mean? Another core of Christian faith is the belief that we can't force anyone to believe in Jesus and be saved, so we don't require you to. We would just much rather have you in heaven, you know? For some reason, people wanting others to be in heaven with them is the ultimate wrong.

I think this brings up an excellent point- just what is the true "core" of the Christian faith? Is there such a thing, that it can all be boiled down to one simple sentence, or is it too complicated to do the faith justice by over-simplifying things? Is it purely to try and save as many people as possible, or is that just one facet of it? In the scriptures Christ said that above all else we are to love our neighbours as ourselves and love the lord God with all your heart. Yes, he also says to go and spread the word until everyone in the world has heard, but there's a lot more to it than just witnessing IMHO. But this leads me to my next question (dons flame shield)- shouldn't politics and religion be kept separate? Give to Caesar what is Caesar and give to God what is God's? I have a HUGE problem with the words "religious right", and if there is ever a serious "religious left" group I'll have an equally large problem with them too. The problem with mixing politics and religion is that ultimately, if left to it's own devices long enough you will get a leader, or political party that claims that it is sanctioned by God and therefore there can be no opposition or debate. I was visiting my home town back in July and this is a place that is deeply, deeply conservative, and also deeply christian. For a town of less than 15 thousand people there are almost 20 churches, and all of em' are full on sunday. While visiting, we got into a discussion about good ol Dubya, what a good christian he is and how he's doin a heckuva job, fightin them terrists! I put forth the question, would Jesus approve of the invasion of Iraq, and if so, why? Keep in mind that Christ never advocated violence and even stopped his own disciples from fighting when the authorities came to arrest him. There was also that whole thing about how it will be harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, but yet many of these upstanding fine 'christian' leaders come from very well moneyed backgrounds. So that leads into this question.... could it be, that many of the conservative leaders claiming to be christian, claiming to form the "religious right" could actually be posers? Could it be that they've learned that if they put up the appearance of being a good, God-fearing person who will (supposedly) actively promote the tenants of the faith that that will then secure them a stable voting base? Just a question....

I think this brings up an excellent point- just what is the true "core" of the Christian faith? Is there such a thing, that it can all be boiled down to one simple sentence, or is it too complicated to do the faith justice by over-simplifying things? Is it purely to try and save as many people as possible, or is that just one facet of it? In the scriptures Christ said that above all else we are to love our neighbours as ourselves and love the lord God with all your heart. Yes, he also says to go and spread the word until everyone in the world has heard, but there's a lot more to it than just witnessing IMHO. But this leads me to my next question (dons flame shield)- shouldn't politics and religion be kept separate? Give to Caesar what is Caesar and give to God what is God's? I have a HUGE problem with the words "religious right", and if there is ever a serious "religious left" group I'll have an equally large problem with them too. The problem with mixing politics and religion is that ultimately, if left to it's own devices long enough you will get a leader, or political party that claims that it is sanctioned by God and therefore there can be no opposition or debate. I was visiting my home town back in July and this is a place that is deeply, deeply conservative, and also deeply christian. For a town of less than 15 thousand people there are almost 20 churches, and all of em' are full on sunday. While visiting, we got into a discussion about good ol Dubya, what a good christian he is and how he's doin a heckuva job, fightin them terrists! I put forth the question, would Jesus approve of the invasion of Iraq, and if so, why? Keep in mind that Christ never advocated violence and even stopped his own disciples from fighting when the authorities came to arrest him. There was also that whole thing about how it will be harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, but yet many of these upstanding fine 'christian' leaders come from very well moneyed backgrounds. So that leads into this question.... could it be, that many of the conservative leaders claiming to be christian, claiming to form the "religious right" could actually be posers? Could it be that they've learned that if they put up the appearance of being a good, God-fearing person who will (supposedly) actively promote the tenants of the faith that that will then secure them a stable voting base? Just a question....

Reply By: ArtysimPosted: Thursday, October 25, 2007

All excellent points. no wonder out of all the chimps I ran across you were the one that seemed to have their head screwed on right, even though we disagree on most everything. You at least present cogent arguments, with no name calling. good stuff here.

BTW just as a side bar, I noticed KFC and LULA throwing around the MM hates word. well no where did I say I hate anyone! or any religion.

Cikoymr posts:

Then what are your moral values based upon if not religion?

I think this brings up an excellent point- just what is the true "core" of the Christian faith? Is there such a thing, that it can all be boiled down to one simple sentence, or is it too complicated to do the faith justice by over-simplifying things?

Well, I am no biblical scholar (I am Catholic ), but I think it can be summed up in one of his teachings.

Love your neighbor as yourself. That plus putting nothing before God are basically it.  The rest is interpretation and details - that not every sect of Christianity agrees upon.

"could it be, that many of the conservative leaders claiming to be christian, claiming to form the "religious right" could actually be posers? Could it be that they've learned that if they put up the appearance of being a good, God-fearing person who will (supposedly) actively promote the tenants of the faith that that will then secure them a stable voting base? Just a question.... "

Yes, it could be. But I am not equipped to make that judgement on an individual basis. Regardless, I think on a statistical level we could say that currently, there is at least one poser out there. But I couldn't tell you which ones are which.

MM -

No Christian can condemn you to Hell. Sometimes, we need to be reminded.

Reply By: JythierPosted: Thursday, October 25, 2007 "could it be, that many of the conservative leaders claiming to be christian, claiming to form the "religious right" could actually be posers? Could it be that they've learned that if they put up the appearance of being a good, God-fearing person who will (supposedly) actively promote the tenants of the faith that that will then secure them a stable voting base? Just a question.... " Yes, it could be. But I am not equipped to make that judgement on an individual basis. Regardless, I think on a statistical level we could say that currently, there is at least one poser out there. But I couldn't tell you which ones are which. MM - No Christian can condemn you to Hell. Sometimes, we need to be reminded.

You are right no Christian can, But I am constantly reminded by many Christians, if I do not give my self to Jesus ask forgiveness of my sins and be baptized in the name of the lord I am doomed to hell.

Another Eye of the Needle thing? Pah. I heard it was a gate into cities that would require camels to be unloaded, get down on their knees and crawl through that way (which they wouldn't want to do).

Either way, it's the same point. But, it leaves out an important qualification. How much do you need to have to be rich?

I think it leaves it out because it has nothing to do with how much you have, but rather your attitude towards what you do have.

Well, at least I don't have to remind you! It seems you've been given the message and don't believe in Jesus Christ being the Messiah. I won't try to convince you, because I really have nothing of my own to add to the message that He is. Who am I to tell you how to interpret your own book, right?

no it refers to the night door to get through a walled city. said door was so small a Camel had to walk on its knees to get through it. and you probable had to unpack it.