Now, that would be an interesting study.   

AD POSTS:

St.Paul's writings are totally consistent with the rest of Scripture. Scripture is all of God's Revelation to mankind from the Old Testament beginning with Genesis to the New Testament ending with the Book of the Apocalypse. Sacred Scripture is God's written salvation plan for mankind.

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AD POSTS #283

My response to your question will most probably elicit a fire-storm of comments, but here goes.

The beginning of the New Covenant in the Blood of the Christ meant the end of the Hebrew religion of the Old Covenant, of the Mosaic Law, its ceremonies, rites, and sacrifices. Although they were suited for divine worship at the time, they were established to signify something in the future. The New Covenant superceded the Old Covenant. At the moment of the Crucifixion when the Temple veil was rent from top to bottom, God was making it known that the ceremonies and rites of the ancient MOsaic Law were to be abolished by Christ and that heaven would be open for all.

St.Paul told the Galatians 3:10, the rabbinical rituals and laws of the OC, being abolished, now count for nothing, confer no grace, and save no one. Worse, they bring about a curse upon those who obstinately cling to them. He warned the Jews, "for as many as are under the works of the law, are under a curse." In his epistle to the Hebrews, St. Paul wrote, "there is an abrogation of the former commandment, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law brought nothing to perfection. In saying a new, He (Christ)made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end."

By Christ's death and the promulgation of the Gospel, the OC ceremonies, rites and Temple sacrifices ceased to be salvific. The New and Everlasting Covenant together with its mysteries, Sacraments, and sacred rites, was ratified for the whole world in the Blood of Christ, our Lord and Redeemer shed for the whole human race.

While Our Lord was preaching to the lost of the House of Israel, the Law and His Gospel were together in force...but on the Cross, Christ's death made void the Old Law with its decrees and established the New and Everlasting Covenant. To this extent, the Church teaches there was effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Temple to the Church, from the many sacrifices to the ONe Victim, that as OUr Lord died, the mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the Temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.

On the Cross the OLd Law died in order to give way to give way to the New COvenant of which Christ chose His APostles as qualified ministers.

St.Paul writes of the early Churchs struggle against "Judaizers" who thought they could combine the practices and rituals of the Mosaic Law under the OLd Covenant with the religion of the New Covenant. This tendency had to be fought becasue the rituals of the OC only foreshadowed the coming of Christ and the Sacrifice of the Mass and to persist in those rituals after His coming would be to implicitly to deny that He had come. Gal. 3:1-2, "Oh, senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ had been set forth, crucified among you, Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or by the hearing of the faith?"


The struggle against the Judaizers came to an end as did biblical Judaism in 70AD when Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed.

I understand this. But I think you're trying to hang onto this in Acts 15 as your proof text without using other scriptures that help clarify. I know in my own experience when something didn't seem right to me or wasn't consistent it wasn't the scripture that was off but my thinking that was off.

Think about this. Right after we read this in Acts 15 we see that Paul has Timothy circumcised (16:3)? Why? Why was Titus exempt from circumcision? Didn't they all agree here at the JC that it wasn't needed? I think it's relevent to what we're discussing here. It's all tied in with the same principle at play.



Well the majority of the NT was written in GK with the OT almost all in Hebrew. But when put together they have the same mindset. The OT writers were in sync totally with the NT writers so there really shouldn't be a problem here.

I would agree with you about the mindset being totally different outside of having the mind of Christ. He's the one that brings unity to believers whether they be Jew or Greek, Slave or Free.

As far as the New Covenant is concerned, I wrote up quite a study on the Passover back a while including the New Covenant and how it came into play. I'll see if I can dig it up and get back to you with it. I'm sure you're aware that Christ instituted this new covenant just before he died at the last supper.

Let me ask this question if I may,why does scripture tells us that there is one torah for both the homeborn and the foriegnor?

Also why does scripture say we will go up to Zion and Jerusalem to learn the torah?

Last question,who are the two eternal witnesses and what are they called to bear witness of?
Terry

Because God is not a respector of persons. Although the Torah was given to the Jews as they were chosen by God Gentiles were adopted into the faith when they claimed the Hebrew God as their own. The reason he chose the Jews was so that Israel would be a light to the world pointing the way to their God who called them out of Egypt. This same people group would be the vehicle from which the Messiah would be born for the salvation of the world. The promise to Noah and to Abraham was that "all nations" would be blessed as a result of belief in the Messiah who would come from Abraham's seed.



Because Jerusalem is God's Holy City, always has been. It's where David bought the land that was first just a threshing floor. It's the place where his son would build the first grand Temple. And much before all this, it was the place where Abraham was willing to give the life of his son foreshadowing the son of God's ultimate sacrifice in the same place.



Not sure whom you're referring but I'm guessing you're talking about the two witnesses in Revelation? If so, many have their own ideas who these two could be. I tend to lean towards Elijah and Moses. Both died/were taken mysteriously. Nobody buried either one of their bodies and before Moses went up to the mountain to die it said he was in very good health not frail at all and only God knows where his body was buried.

wow 289 and still will not die............

Jeremiah 3131 Posts:

KFC posts:

KFC,

You must be referring to Apoc. 11:3..."My two witnesses....shall prophesy twelve hundred and sixty days."

You're right about there being many different ideas proposed as to who or what these two witnesses might be. I've read these two could be understood as Henoch (Enoch) and Elias (Elijah), who are to come before the end of the world. The Church Father's opinion at least as to Elias is grounded on those words of the prophet Malachias 4:5, "behold, I will send you Elias, the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord; and also on the words of our Saviour, Christ in St. Matthew 17:11 where He tells his disciples: "Elias indeed shall come, and restore all things." They weren't as unanimous as to Henoch. St. Hilary wrote that some thought Jeremias was to come with Elias, and he himself thought that with Elias would come Moses.

St. Cyprian expounds it of two sorts of martyrs, perhaps Sts. Peter and Paul, both martyred before these 1,260 days began.

Others who look at Daniel's vision in chapter 7, best interpret the witnesses as the Law and the Prophets. Daniel informed us that the little horn, Nero, would make war on the time and the law for three and a half years. This was the first time we learned of the 42 months. In this case, the times and the Law that Daniel mentions are the parallel of the two witnesses.


Moses and Elias certainly serve as the personification of all that the Law and the Prophets represented. Moses gave Israel the Law and Elias was the epitome of God's prophet. He prophesied during a similiar 3 and a half period of judgment in the OT.

Jeremiah 3131 Posts:

If we look at the two witnesses as being Moses and Elias (and the Law and the Prophets allegorically speaking), then we could point so some events surrounding these two witnesses as already fulfilled. As long as the Temple stood, the Mosaic system gave voice to the Law and the Prophets. They witnessed against the paganism of both the Romans and unfaithful Jews. This witness greatly annoyed the Romans. The Law and the Prophets (biblical Judaism) were "killed" by pagan Rome when Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed by the Roman army in70AD.

Surely Biblical Judaism and even this small sect within Judaism (the common view of Christianity at the time)would dissipate when Jerusalem was destroyed. Pagan Rome was so overjoyed that people made merry over it. But the world was wrong to think that God's Truth could be silenced by war.

The Law and the Prophets even now proclaim their message of moral uprightness and worship of the one God within the heavenly city of the New Jerusalem, which is the Church. God's New Covenant went beyond armies. From this point on, the message of the Law and the Prophets is beyond the powers of earthly kingdoms to silence...they are protected in Heaven and continue to bear witness against evil and immorality on earth from their home of the New Jerusalem, Christ's Church.

Pagan Romans conquered thousands of Jews but couldn't overcome 12 unarmed men.

Through our discussion with AD, we know the early Church assiduously used the Jewish Law and Prophets of the Old Testament Scriptures to point people to Christ. Acts 1:16; 8:35; 17:2; 17:11; 18:28; Rom. 1:2-3; 1Cor. 15:3-4. The situation became so distressful to the Jewish Rabbis that they revised the list of the canon a few decades after the fall of Jerusalem and some very Messianic books of the OT were demoted to deuterocanonical status.

Yet, the early fledgling Church continued to use the Law and the Prophets for the simple reason that Christ was really to be found in the OT. Through the efforts of the martyrs and saints of the early Chruch, the Law and the Prophets really did rise again to bear witness to God's undefeated Truth.

you forgot heaven and earth;deut 30 and matthew 5,if two eternal witnesses are called to bear witness of something is that something binding as long as the two eternal ones are bearing witness?
Pastor Terry

Could you be a little more specific?

ditto...I'm not getting it either.

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 in that I command thee this day to love Yahweh thy Elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his mitzwah and his statutes and his ordinances, that thou mayest live and multiply, and that Yahweh thy Elohim may bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

17 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other elohim, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days in the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed;

20 to love Yahweh thy Elohim, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him; for he is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which Yahweh sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see Elohim.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of Yahweh.

10 Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house.

16 Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

So if your saying Yahshua/Iesus/Jesus came to make changes then why did he say and reference to the two witnesses bearing account of what was told to their fathers?

See if we have new sabbaths,and feast days which belong to rome,then you have to say heaven and earth are done away with but yet that will not work for in Matthew 24 Messiah says something contrary,he took it further heaven and earth can pass away but his words will not.

Also in the 1,000 yr reign we will be doing sacrifices and keeping the feasts,and the Sabbaths of the Mighty One of Israel,not the mighty one of rome who will be cast aside.
Pastor Terry

Is this what your banking on Pastor Terry?

Is this what your banking on Pastor Terry?

What I am banking on is obedience to the One who came to Redeem us from the curses and to bring us back to the blessings,and recieve the promise of serving him for all times.

Lulu I know your alot brighter then some of your postings reflect,to see a fuller picture step outside of what your church says and step into what the Word of the Mighty One of Israel has to say.
Terry

Ezekiel 40-48 tells us about how we are going to behave in the millinum kingdom,please read this chapter for what the church has to say onlot of issues is bogus.

Lula I grew up like I stated before in the Sister church of Rome,I was a staunch Luthern til I was 37-38 when reading for myself I found error after error inside of the church.
Pastor Terry

Pastor Terry,




Me too. God Incarnate is Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life, Who came to redeem us from our sins so that we might be with HIm in eternal life.

No where does Scripture say that we will be doing sacrifices, keeping the feasts and Sabbaths of OLd Israel in a 1,000 year milennium.