hysterical, they are a right pair!

LOL... Robert Tilton. I watched him back in the 80's, and he's still going strong.

Reply By: kingbeePosted: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 "You scored as a composite of Bob Tilton, Joan d'Arc & Osiris." like i needed a test to reveal that to myself.

So good to see you around kingbee. and life itself is a test that you seem to be getting a [passing grade}

Reply By: BakerStreetPosted: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 ... Robert Tilton. I watched him back in the 80's, and he's still going strong

gee baker, well read, well educated,.. I hate you! lol

Don't knock it, Woody Allen has made a career out of Jewish self-loathing.



Bah, Robert Tilton is a televangelist. Most often now on BET at night. The fact that I know who he is is more of a shame than a credit.

LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

This is true of the Church. I stand by this. Self righteousness is a sin and works alone are not in God's plan of salvation. Luther being a priest should have known it too and instead falsely charged the Church as being works based...this is the Protestant oral tradition that has been handed down.

LULA POSTS:


KFC, granted, my saying "BY FIRST REACHING OUT" is very poor wording and I've learned anything here on JU it's that every word counts! And this is both a good and important point that you make. I should have said the Church has never taught that sanctity comes through our own justice or works. God first gives us the gift of grace. It follows that we receive from God the grace to pray, From Him we receive all the other graces which are necessary for salvation, either through direct response to prayer, or through the 7 Sacraments beginning with Baptism.

LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

Having restated that, do you still think so KFC?

If you do, KFC, then this is you giving me Protestant oral traditon. The Reformers did more than nail 95 thesis to the door; they threw out the 7 Sacraments as 'works' and quite frankly, I don't know if they thought of prayer as 'works' or not. Never, ever, will you convince me that praying and receiving the 7 Blessed Sacraments are "works" based.

Luther was inordinately attached to his own ideas trifling too hard to make his notion of salvation by "faith alone" by throwing out everything he deemed as "works" based. He convinced himself that man as a consequence of Original Sin was totally depraved, destitute of free will; that all 'works' even those directed towards the good, were nothing more than an outgrowth of man's corrupted will. Throwing out everything that is in St.James, Luther fixed his doctrine of justification by faith alone which gradually developed as one of the central doctrines of Protestantism and was taught and handed down by Protestant oral tradition.

Most Protestants are unaware of any "kinship" between themselves and Luther, but hold Luther's dogma of 'eternal security of the believer, that a person once saved is always saved' at its core with the status of infallibility. Luther's new religion was built on the framework from which no one is permitted to depart and no deviation is allowed. Catholics believe that all faithful believers have moral assurance of salvation in that God is faithful, however, people can remain in mortal sin; revert into unbelief and deliberately renounce salvation. We ask where can you find the words "once saved; always saved"; "eternal security", or "eternally secure" in Sacred Scripture? You can't becasue it's an invention of Luther and the other Reformers.



LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

I'd like to explain what is meant by the Church never teaching works alone.

Grace (Latin, gratia, favor) is a free gift. After initial justification, we can 'grow in grace' 2St.Peter. 3:18, that is we can deepen our friendship with GOd and find new expressions of that friendship. We increase sanctifying grace in our souls that is we deepen our friendship with GOd through the worthy reception of the 7 Blessed Sacraments (which are outwards signs of inward grace ordained by Jesus CHrist by which grace is given to our souls.)They are Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.

We also deepen our friendship with God through the meritorious actions ("WORKS"--DONE FOR LOVE OF GOD), provided grievious (mortal) sin has not severed us from Christ. "I am the vine, you are the branches: he that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone abideth not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they (angels on the Last Day) shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. St. John 15:5-6. It is the merits of CHrist, the source of all salvation and grace, which give to good works all their supernatural excellence. They are done in His name. It is the motive and the interior disposition of the soul which gives all value to external works, such as fasting, assisting at the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass, and abstinence from legitimate pleasures, Ps. 34:13-18; St.Matt 6:16; 9:15; Acts 13:2-3; 2Cor. 11:27. All of these, without that motive and interior disposition, are mere physical labors. No exterior influence will suffice to make them fertile.

Furthermore, Catholic teaching ascribes no efficacy whatsoever to a mere external compliance with her precepts. The essence of Catholicism (religion) doesn't lie in anything exterior, or in ceremonies or forms. Fixed exterior forms serve also to assure adherence to an important principle, "Let all things be done decently, and according to order." 1Cor.14:40. The Church's ceremonies and rites are largely concerned with the liturgy of the Holy Mass and administering to the faithful the 7 Blessed Sacraments in a way that insures their validity.

But aren't the sacraments, themselves, works, lula? You aren't talking about salvation being made of ONLY works, but works are required, right? Even works of third parties who enact these sacraments. Do you really believe any part of our salvation relies upon mortal men?

You are not fairly representing your CC Lula by saying they don't believe in works for salvation. There are NO other graces. God saves us by Grace period. Grace is unmerited favor. We don't deserve it but he saves us anyway. There are no seven sacraments in scripture either. That is CC teaching not biblical teaching.

I know marriage is a CC sacrament. Marriage is needed for Salvation? Confirmation is needed for salvation? Extreme Unction is needed for salvation? No biblical Lula. Besides, this isn't works? You say no works then you say we need to do these things. Doesn't make sense Lula.

I looked on the Vatican Holy See site and got this:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

no where in scripture is this true. Nowhere does it say in scripture that we MUST be baptized to be SAVED. NOWHERE. We are to be baptized yes. But not to save us. This is a work Lula. For us to do anything is a work. God saves us period. Our first response is baptism as a witness and first act of obedience. It represents us dying to the world and self and living for Christ in the newness of life. We are to become new creatures and baptism represents us being buried and raised up again as a witness to this new life. It's usually done in public places for just that reason.

By your reasoning Lula, nobody in the OT was saved then? That's not true. Paul makes it very clear that Abraham was found righteous before God and he was never baptized. Read Romans 4 and go back to Genesis. It's very clear. Abraham was saved by Grace and not because of anything he did.

You said earlier that the thief on the cross was stuck in limbo. Where do you get that? Jesus said himself..."today you will be with me in Paradise." So if the thief was in limbo, he had company with Christ being there too.

You need to show me Lula, where in scripture Baptism is NECESSARY for Salvation. If baptism is necessary as you say, how did the OT Saints get saved and how did the thief on the cross get saved? Both statements cannot be true. You cannot need baptism and NOT need baptism at the same time.



Exactly. I agree here with Baker, Lula. Mark this one down....LOL.

so what you're saying here is you are unteachable. Com'on Lula. You know the verse...."take heed lest you fall."



hey I already asked you where the book was on this. Nope. The only book I go by is the bible and it's all in there Lula. I don't need oral traditon. You yourself have said you are covered by tradition as a twin pillar to scripture. Not me.



well Lula. He was right. Romans 3 is what this is all about....."There is none righteous not even one." "There is none that seek after God." There's not much room here to argue Lula. NONE is pretty cut and dry. It doesn't say SOME.

Well we might want to throw that out huh Lula? Put that with Abraham being made rightous outside of anything in Chap 4. We need to get rid of that too.

It's interesting that the letter of Romans which plainly speaks of where salvation comes from went to Rome. The book of Romans was what convinced Luther that we are saved by grace alone, by faith alone. It's all in there.



whenever you get into a corner Lula, you pull Luther on me. I don't follow Luther. I see many things Luther believed in that I would not adhere to, like infant baptism for instance. I didn't get 100% Luther on this test on this blog did I? No. For good reason. Luther still had some Catholic ways about him still. I liken him to 1/2 Catholic and 1/2 Protest of the Catholic church. I believe God gave him limited light. He wasn't a prophet with full vision. He was a man for his time.



no, not new religion. He was trying to reform what he thought was deviation in the CC. He had no intention of starting a new religion, only reforming it.



ha! I've given you a ton on this. Does this go back to your very first quote in this entry Lula? So you're saying if I can't find those exact words as you put forth there is no such thing? If that's your criteria...then you're right. But here's a few for you to "chew" on.


"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED. Acts 16:48

"Praising God and having favour with all the peole. And the Lord added to the church daily such as SHOULD BE SAVED." Acts 2:47 Saved from what? Can you get "unsaved?" Can you get "unborn?"

"These things have I written you tou that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God; that YOU MAY KNOW that you have ETERNAL LIFE and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13

"And this is the record that God has given to us ETERNAL LIFE and this life is IN HIS SON. He that HAS the Son HAS LIFE and he that has not the Son of God HAS NOT Life." 1 John 5:11-12

Jesus himself said this in John's gospel:

"That whosoever BELIEVES in him should not perish, but have eternal life." 3:15
"Truly, Truly I say to you, He that hears my word and BELIEVES on Him that sent me HAS everlasting life and shall NOT come into condemnation, but is PASSED from death to life." 5:24.

Now here's a clinker for you Lula. We know Jesus said that all the father gives into his hand he will not lose...that's eternal security for sure...anyhow in the upper room before he was to die he said this:

"While I was with them (Apostles/disciples) in the world, I kept them in your name those that you gave me I have kept and NONE of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition (Judas) that the scripture might be fulfilled." John 17

Now, this is showing eternal secruity for all of his Apostles and disciples that believed on him while he was on earth right? What about Peter who denied him? That came later on that night. According to RCC rules, Peter would have been in mortal sin wouldn't he? Not according to Jesus tho. That's a contradiction right there Lula. One of many.

God is always faithful to us even when we are not. Once in the family of God, we don't NOT become his child. Positionally we are secure. Relationally we might not be in his favor while we stray but like the Prodigal, he gives us only so much rope and then he pulls us back.

ah, but the difference is I love my people baker and am profoundly Pro Jewish.

Just as a side note I have started reading the "LEFT BEHIND" series and am on book one. some scary stuff happening.

What do you mean "some scary stuff happening"?


It's end times "Rapture theology" Tim LaHaye style, so remember it's fiction. It's also really biased against Catholicism, so watch for that. Although, as a Jew, it's quite possible that you may not be able to recognize that so easily.

Yes, it's fiction but it's based on biblical prophecy. I've read almost all of them, didn't read the last few because they weren't out at the time and never got back.

The characters are false, of course, but the whole idea was to make it easier for others to see what's going to happen story form. In fact both LaHaye & Jenkins along with Marv Rosenthal were on CNN for an interview today. That Marv Rosenthal is a Christian Jew who has some very interesting things to say. He puts out a magazine called Zion's Fire and has a place called Holy Land down in Florida. I've been there. It's got alot of Jewish feel to it. He's very interested in the Jews and their future, knowing that God has something very good planned ahead for them.

Yes actually, through a history of world religions class in college.

It's fiction and is based on interpretations and extrapolations. I enjoyed reading the series but it can hardly be taken seriously.