I just want you guys to know I have been reading and being educated by the comments left here. I have nothing to add, so I have remained silent."better to be thought a fool than to be a fool"

KFC POSTS:


KFC, the abomination of desolation that Christ spoke of in St. Matt 24:15 HAS INDEED already been fulfilled and there was no mention of a “yet unbuilt temple” in the prophecy or in the fulfillment of it. Why are you adding a reference of a “yet unbuilt temple” to Christ's reference of Daniel prophecy in St.Matt. 24:15? Where does that come from?

Here in verse 15, the “desolating abomination” aka “the desolating sacrilege”, Jesus is referring to a prophecy in Daniel (9:27; 11:31; 12:11) where Daniel foretold that the Syrian king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, would occupy the temple and erect images of false gods on the altar of holocausts. This came to pass and the idol was set up on the altar--a sign of abomination (idolatry) and desolation. Our Lord applies this episode in the history of Israel to the future destruction of Jerusalem ---asking people “let the reader understand” to pay more heed to the text of Daniel. Jesus tells them that a new abomination of desolation will occur ruining the temple to make way for idolatrous worship---as happened in 70AD when the Roman armies destroyed and profaned the temple, and later, under Hadrian, who ordered the erection of a statue of Jupiter on the ruins.

So, in short, Daniel's desolating abomination is what Antiochus did to the Temple in Jerusalem and the new abomination that Christ refers to in St.Matt. 24:15 occured in 70AD, Daniels' 70th week, when the Roman army profaned the Temple.

KFC, you say that Daniel is both history and prophecy. Some is still to come.

To me, it’s been shown that all of the OT prophecy has been fulfilled, including Daniel. It’s all happened and in the history books. Should we take those fulfilled OT prophecies which are now historical events and use those to point out signs of future events or even the future events themselves? Is that what you’re doing or what you mean when you say the abomination of desolation that Christ spoke of in Matt 24:15 has to do with the Antichrist declaring himself as God sitting in the yet unbuilt temple?

I just can’t see where or how the “yet unbuilt temple” figures in from Christ’s reference to Daniel in St.Matt 24:15?

Thank you, MM, for saying this. It's good to know.

I'm the type of person who likes to bring the debate or discussion to the point of agreement or if deadlocked: of agreeing to disagree. The problem is sometimes avidly following through the discussion involves "hijacking" the blog and I wouldn't want to that. I have the utmost respect for KFC and it's always a learning curve for me discussing Sacred Scripture.

You are new here Lula, so understand this, I am NOT one of those that get annoyed if the subject is not followed to the letter, there is an ebb and flow here that I personally find educating and exciting, remember I am a JEW and know little of the New testament.

This is not even close to being true Lula. Actually this is something I'm really immersed in right now, studying the Kings and Prophets for my upcoming final on the Divided Kingdom. Read Zech 14 for instance.

When it says starting in Zech 14:4: "His feet (Jesus) shall stand on that day upon the mount of Olives which is beofre Jerusalem on the east and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst toward the east and toward the west and there shall be a very great valey and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south.....in that day that the light shall not be clear, nor dark.....it shall be on day which shall be known to the Lord, not day nor night......and it shall be in that day that lving waters shall go out from Jerusalem half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea.....and the Lord shall be King over all the earth and in that day shall there be ONE LORD and his name one......and it shall come to pass that ever one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

WHEN DID ALL THIS HAPPEN LULA? It hasn't happened yet. This is all future. Someday there will be ONE religion, ONE Lord and all will worship together. Jews and Gentiles. This is the beginning of the battle of Armageddeon. That's what this is.

The OT prophets spoke of two comings. The first and the second. They never saw the church age. We are like dipped below their time line. When they looked ahead, they didn't see us. They didn't forsee that their own people would reject Christ during the first coming. The prophets didn't understand much of what they wrote down. They wrote what they were told to by God and as the years have gone by it's become clearer to the readers.



Think! If that's the case why are we still here? Christ said he'd return when all is fulfilled. It's not!! Daniel 9 is all about the antiChrist. Not Epiphanes.

Don't confuse the two.

Jerusalem is God's Holy City. Always has been. Rome is not. The two will battle via the Revived Roman Empire of Daniel 2. Read it. Notice what it says in v44:

In the days of these kings shall the God of Heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the Kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever.

Again, this has NOT happened yet. Notice God is going to set up his kingdom in the days of "these kings." Here it's speaking the revived Roman Empire. Notice the ten toes earlier in v42. It's going to be made up of 10 Kingdoms. In the middle of this era is when Christ will come back and destroy them and set up his own. That's why I keep my eye on what's going on not only in Jerusalem but also in Europe. The stage is being set even now.

Keep in mind also, that Europe is fast becoming very Muslim. They are outbreeding the Europeans something like seven to one. I'm guessing that may come into play here as well.

hahaha well stand back and enjoy the show. Lula and I get along smashingly well although I admit I get frustrated when she starts bring the CC's interpretation into play. I want her to think on her own not lean on their interpretation. But still, it's rare to see an Evangelical Fundie and a Catholic get along well enough to banter like this.



Keep in mind, not knowing if you know this about me, but my great great grandfather was a Jewish Rabbi. I would have been brought up that way if his daughter didn't end up marrying a Catholic way back when it was very taboo. So I started out Catholic and have evolved from there.

But as a Jew, you really should at least read Matthew. It was written by and especially for the Jews. It's very Jewish and a good start to give you some background on what we're talking about here.

well he can't be talking about Antiochus Epiphanes as you stated because that already was history happening in 165BC. Notice what Jesus says in Matt 24:15:

"When you therefore SHALL see (future) the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE....."

Jesus is talking about the AC who at the midpoint of the Tribulation breaks the covenant he made with the Jewish people at the beginning of the Tribulation which Daniel spoke of in 9:27. He will then demand that the world worship him. Many will be persecuted and martyed and the reason for the urgency of the instructions in the rest of this part in Matt 16-22.

So how can this already have taken place or have happened in 70AD? Jesus is saying when you see him stand in the holy place. Daniel explained when this would happen. It would happen when the covenant would be broken. It didn't happen in 70AD. Titus came in and burned down the temple and Jerusalem. This covenant is the peace treaty that will be set up between the Jews and Arabs. One of the next things to take place.

So we need to look for a few things on the horizon. One, the temple being rebuilt and there is already plans in place for this. Second, someone is going to step up and be the man of peace....check out Spain and Javier Solana. Many are watching him very closely. Third, peace will be had for a while.....it will seem as tho we've finally got peace. It will last for about three years and then all hell will break loose. It will not be real peace, but a false peace.

You are taking the Preterist View Lula. Did you do your HW on this? It came about in 1614 by a Spanish Jesuit named of Alcasar. He wrote "Vestigatio Arcani Sensus Apocalypsi"

The CC was bothered by Luther who had the historic viewpoint of Revelation. Luther came right out and said his own beloved Church was the beast of Revelation. So the CC via Alcasar came up with this Preterist view and backdated all this to 70 AD. Don't buy it. It's deception from the pit of hell. That's why those scriptures you're giving me don't fit. It hasn't happened yet.

"When he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for hs shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me for he shall receive of mine and shall show it to you. All things that the Father has are mine; therefore said I that he shall take of mine and show it to you." -Jesus- John 16:13-15

My guide is the HS and what Christ told us to lean on. Not men but the HS. Men can help us but we need to test them against the word of God. When we stand before our maker, we stand alone.

Notice the trinity in the above words of Christ.

KFC POSTS:


It's true that v.13 it is the Holy Spirit who makes the truth fully understood. Amen for that. The Holy Trinity is the basic foundation of the Christian faith.

I'm content to have the Catholic Church as my guide to understanding Sacred Scripture as Christ promised He would send the Holy Spirit to guide her in all things...and that He would be with her until the end of the world and the gates of Hell will not prevail. I read Sacred Scripture with the conviction that any sense which would be opposed to the express teaching of the Church would undoubtedly be an erroneous interpretation. I know that the Chruch alone is the only ultimate and infallible interpretater of its pages. Individual readers relying on their own private judgment are liable to be mistaken. The CC cannot fall into error in any express definitions concerning the contents of Scripture. My conviction is that God confided the inpsired writings to the guardianship of the CC. The written pages cannot explain themselves. The living voice of an authentic interpreter is necessary...and God in His All loving and merciful providence has provided that in the Catholic Church.

I might warn that even granted a correct version, thousands of people have been harmed by reading Scripture thinking themselves capable of interpretating it aright. The Pharisees read Scripture, yet managed to use or misuse, quotations as an argument against Christ and what He said. You might ask yourself what guarantee do you have that your own private interpretation is correct?

On this, we have to agree that I have my way and you have your way of understanding what the Sacred Scriptures mean.

KFC POSTS:

My Douay Rheims footnotes have chapter 9 about Gabriel and the 70 weeks.
The "one week" mentioned at the start of 9:27 refers to the time of Antiochus persecution. Antiochus IV Epiphanes had all the mean and awful satanic attributes of the Antichrist that is mentioned in St.John. From that, we consider Antiochus as a type or prefigure of Antichrist. The actual word, Antichrist, wasn't even in existance in Daniel's time or visions.

Throughout this thread, we have seen that a number of biblical texts refer to events now in the past and some clearly point toward “the end of days” Dan 12:13. Given the cryptic and often symbolic language in these texts, it’s easy to see how each one's different interpretation of them are often contradictory. Discussions that attempt to answer the who, when, and where questions concerning Antichrist inevitably leads to 'end times' speculation. The Catholic Church warns believers to avoid futile speculation on how the world will end.

These are the summary of Catholic Chruch essentials that we can know for certain about the end of the world.

---Jesus Christ will return to earth in glory and no one but God knows when.

---The Antichrist will appear to deceive the world and persecute the Church. We don't know who or what Antichrist is or when (he) will appear.

---The Church will suffer tribulation similar to that as prophesied by her Lord in St.Matt 24:15-28. We do not know for certain how long the tribulation period will be.

---The final victory of Christ on earth will not come through a gradual improvement in the world's spiritual condition, nor by a special period of His earthly reign before Judgment Day. It will take place not within history, but beyond it, after Christ has brought an end to history by His Second Coming to judge the living and the dead.

---The Jewish people will come to recognize Jesus Christ as their Messiah before He returns. See Romans 11: 25-29. We don’t know when or under what circumstances this will happen.

---The dead will be raised bodily. 1Cor.15: 20-58.

---Christ will judge the living and the dead, and the Devil and his cohort will be overthrown.

---At the end of time, God’s kingdom will come to it’s fullness, and all things will be renewed, perfected, and consummated Apoc. 21:1-22:5.



Surely, as the sun comes up, there will be disagreement and that’s why I’ve posted the section from the Catechism of CC, 2nd edition that teaches Our Lord's Second Coming and the final Judgment.

Article 7, "FROM THENCE HE WILL COME AGAIN TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD"

Christ already reigns through the Church..

"Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living." Rom 14: 9. Christ's Ascension into heaven signifies his participation, in His humanity, in God's power and authority. Jesus Christ is Lord: He possesses all power in heaven and on earth. He is "far above the rule and authority and power and dominion", for the Father " has put all things under his feet." Eph 1: 20-22 Christ is Lord of the cosmos and of history. In Him human history and indeed all creation are "set forth" and transcendently fulfilled Eph 1: 10; Eph. 4: 10;1Cor 15: 24, 27-28.

As Lord, Christ is also the head of the Church, which is His Body Eph 1: 22. Taken up to heaven and glorified after He had thus fully accomplished His mission, Christ dwells on earth in the hearts of His people and in His Church in the form of the Holy Eucharist in Tabernacle in every Catholic Church.

The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit (HS), exercises over the Church. "The kingdom of Christ [is] already present in mystery" on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom." Eph 4: 11-13. The terminology used in Apostolic times for ministries of the Church may have changed, however, the ministries themselves have not changed. V. 13. "Guiding the Church in the way of all truth St.John 16: 13, and unifying her in communion and in the works of ministry, the HS bestows upon her varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her and He adorns her with His fruits." Eph. 4: 11-13, 1Cor 12: 4; Gal 5: 22.


Since the Ascension God's plan has entered into it's fulfillment. We are already at "the last hour" 1St.John 2:18; 1St.Peter 4:7. "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect." 1Cor 10: 11. Christ's kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church St.Mark 16: 17-18,29.


....until all things are subjected to Him

Though already present in the Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and with great glory" by the King's return to earth St.Luke 21: 27; St.Matt 25: 31. This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover 2Thess 2: 7.

Until everything is subject to Him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God." 2St.Peter 3: 13; Rom 8: 19-22; 1Cor 15: 28. That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to Him: 1Cor 11: 26; 2St.Peter 3: 11-12. Marana tha! Thy Lord, come!" 1Cor 16: 22.


Before His Ascension, Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel Acts 1: 6-7 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love, and peace Is 11: 1-9. According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church Acts 1: 8; 1Cor 7: 26; Eph 5: 16; 1St.Peter 4: 17 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching. St. Matt 25: 1; St. Mark 13: 33-37; 1St.John 2: 18; 4: 3; 1Tim 4: 1.


The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel..

Since the Ascension, Christ's coming in glory has been imminent Apoc. 22: 20 even though, "it is not for you to know the time or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority" Acts 1:7; St.Mark 13: 32. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed." St.Matt 24: 44; 1Thess 5: 2; 2Thess 2: 3-12.

The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until His recognition by "all Israel", for a "hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their 'unbelief' toward Jesus Rom 11: 20-26; St. Matt 23: 39. St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: 'Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old." Acts 3: 19-21. St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" Rom 11: 15.

The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles" Rom 11:12,25; St.Luke 21:24 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ," in which "God may be all in all." Eph 4: 13; 1Cor 15: 28.


The Church's ultimate trial..

Before Christ's Second Coming, the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers St. Luke 18: 8 ; St. Matt 24: 12. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth St.Luke 21: 12; St.John 15: 19-20 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh 2Thess2: 4-12; 1Thess 5: 2-3; 2 St.John 7; 1St.John 2: 18,22 .

The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of secular messianism.

The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through the final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in His death and Resurrection Apoc 19: 1-9. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause His Bride to come down from heaven Apoc 13: 8; 20: 7-10; 21: 2-4.

God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world Apoc 20: 12; 2St.Peter 3: 12-13.


To Judge the Living and the Dead......

Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the Final Judgment of the Last Day in His preaching Dan 7: 10; Joel 3: 4; Mal 3: 19; St. Matt 3: 7-12. Then, will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light St.Mark 12: 38-40; St.Luke 12: 1-3; St.John 3: 20-21; Rom 2: 16; 1Cor 4: 5. Then, will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God's grace as nothing be condemned St.Matt 11: 20-24; 12: 41-42. Our attitude about our neighbors will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love St. Matt 5: 22; 7: 1-5. On the last day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." St.Matt 25: 40.

Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to Him as Redeemer of the world. He has this right by His Cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son" St.John 5: 22; Yet, the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life He has in Himself. By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love."

Reply By: little-whipPosted: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 Here's a question I've seen noone ask so far. As a Jew, Elie, why would you put any stock in what Revelations has to say in the first place?

Cause.

OMG Lula, you really gotta learn to do some condensing here. You can write all you want but I'm not buying the Preterist viewpoint. Like I said it didn't even come into play until 1614 when the CC had to answer Luther's claims.

Actually the Preterist view was very popular until the world wars then it dropped off big time in popularity. It's starting to make a comeback tho. Some call themselves "partial preterists."

ok, let's go with this. What covenant did Antiochus make and then break halfway thru the seven years (9:27). And why you're at it, have you even looked at how long Antiochus was "doing his thing?"

Also (you won't agree since you think Daniel is all fulfilled) but check out Daniel 7:8. Notice the little horn? Now the explanation is in v24-25. Do you think this is also speaking of Antiochus in 165 BC? What are the 10 kingdoms this "little horn" is coming out of IF Antiochus was the little horn?



man of little words.

I would think the Jews would be interested in the Anti-Christ because they are still looking for their Messiah. And since Revelation has alot to say about this man of sin, that would be one book of interest.

cause I am interested in other folks religions and views, and yes we still be waiting for de Messiah.

KFC POSTS:


Historically, Antiochus, king of Syria, in 172 BC, took Jerusalem by force, and later desecrated the Temple setting up a pagan altar, which in the First Book of Machabees is called the "abomination of desolation" an expression used by Daniel 9:27.


In answer to your question concerning 9:27, what covenant did Antiochus make and then break halfway through the 7 years, I have two answers. One from the NAB and one from the DR..and you'll be astounded at how cool the difference between the two is.

First, here is the verse for those of you out there in JU Land who may be wondering what KFC is talking about.

9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there will be in the Temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end."

9:27, the NAB footnote is: "One week": is the final phase of the period in view, the time of Antiochus' persecution. "He" is Antiochus himself. "many" are the faithless Jews who allied themselves with the heathen; cf. 1Mach1,11. "half the week" is 3 and one half years, see note on Dan.7:25. The Temple was desecrated by Antiochus from 167 to 165 BC. "abomination of desolation" is perhaps an inscription placed on the portal of the Temple dedicating it to the Olympian Zeus. Our Lord referred to this passage in His own prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem in St.Matt. 24:15.

My understanding of Antiochus is that he is a figure of the Antichrist and thus, relates what the future Antichrist would be like and what might be happening at the end of the world.

Now here is the verse again with the Douay Rheims interpretation.

9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fail: and there will be in the Temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end."

"He" is Christ. Christ "shall confirm the covenant" means the beginning of the New Covenant was at the moment of the Crucification when the Temple veil was rent from top to bottom meant an end to biblical Judaism of the Old Covenant. Almighty God was making it known that the ceremonies, rites, and animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant were to be abolished by Christ and also that heaven should be open to everyone.

"In the half of the week" or, in the middle of the week, means
that because Christ preached three and a half years, and then by His Sacrifice on the Cross, abolished all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.
"victim and the sacrifice shall fail" The animal bloody sacrifice of the Old Covenant being abolished, count for nothing, confer no grace and aren't salvific.
"abomination of desolation" some understand this of the profanation of the Temple by the crimes of the Jews, and by the bloody factions of the zealots. Others of the bringing in of the ensigns and standards of the pagan Romans. Still others, distinguish 3 different times of desolation; that under Antiochus, that when the Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 67-70 AD, and the last near the end of the world under Antichrist. To all which, as they suppose, this prophecy may have a relation.

Interesting Lula...ok then who is the prince of v26 right before it says..."he" in v27?

Also, given your version.....who was Christ talking about in Matthew 24:15 when he said ...."when you SHALL SEE the "abomination of desolation" .......STAND in the Holy Place....?

We can see that somebody is going to STAND in the Holy Place and declare himself as God as did Antiochus in 165BC. It can't be looking back at Antiochus cuz Christ is talking future.

It can't simply be the destruction of the temple. Christ is referring to somebody in the spirit or likeness of Epiphanes. I think just like Hitler, Satan was pushing his man forward and God stopped it. It wasn't time. Nero was pretty bad also...but it wasn't time yet. Both of these men are pointed out from your preterist view. History repeats itself. It's going to happen again.

Satan keeps putting his evil, wicked dictators forward and God keeps taking them down. Hitler came darn near close to taking the whole world over. It wasn't time yet. I absolutely believe our country was born for the sole purpose of helping Israel. But there's going to come a day, when we will not be able to do this anymore and Israel will be attacked by all the nations of the world. This is biblical. It's all going to be centered in and around Israel.

When the time is right, another will rear his ugly head and this time it will culminate in the end of the world.