now...you've got me and Lula mixed up.   

we're grape juice all the way.....

because usually it does. My husband is reading a book now (in preparation for Sunday's sermon) on a Preterist's viewpoint. The author of the book asserts that the Jews have no right to their homeland.

Speaking of the Jews in their land....that only helps to strengthen the case of the futurist btw. They are in their land as the beginning of all what's about to happen...including the abomination of desolation that is to come.



well it's more like WHEN he returns. That will be the circumstance. Zech 12:10 says:

"And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications and they shall look upon me WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son.........in that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem.....in the vally of Megiddon."

This is a very good verse for a Jew to read....MM? Any comments on this?



I've never heard this explanation before. Do the Jews think so? It's not gone forever as far as they are concerned.



No the ANTI-CHRIST will confirm the covenant.

Ok, so I'm saying as a futurist that the seven years of tribulation to come is the last week or Daniel's 70th week. It's also called The Day of the Lord, or The Time of Jacob's Trouble....the Day of God's Vengeance among other things.

I'm trying to figure out what you're saying is the 70th week? Are you saying...that 70 AD was half of the week or 3 1/2 years? If so, where is the second 3 1/2 years? We know the first 69 weeks ending with the crucifixion. So if you're saying 70AD that doesn't fit in a lot of ways. One because if you're looking at Matt 24 it says immediately AFTER he was coming in the clouds...this hasn't happened yet. So the 70th week couldn't have happened yet.

There was a problem in the early church with the Jews that were coming to Christ. These Jewish Christians were called Judaizers and were teaching works were necessary. They still wanted to hang onto their old rituals. These rituals and the OT law served as a shadow of what was to come. Christ was the reality of that shadow. To return to law and negate the necessity of the death of Christ was to act as if bewitched 3:1-2. It would be like us choosing to hug a picture and hang onto it instead of the person. In this case, Christ.

The Galatians were nullifying the grace of God by wanting to retain the law. If the law could have provided the righteousness necessary for justification why did Christ come and have to die? When he says..."I do not frustrate the grace of God" he means "I do not set aside the grace of God."

Notice 2:16....a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ....and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Welcome to the 100 Club MM!!!

Welcome to the 100 Club MM!!!

Reply By: KFC Kickin For ChristPosted: Wednesday, May 09, 2007

 

thank you KFC, but this is my 17th time to the 100 mark. I have been to the 200 Mark 2 times and the 300 mark 2 times too. but I still am gratified.

KFC POSTS:

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:




My view regarding understanding the Second Advent of Christ and the consummation of the world is the Catholic view as outlined from the Catechism of the CC in reply #72. In these, my convictions are set. As far as my comments regarding interpretion of the Scriptures, I don't claim dogmatic status. As we have seen, there are other various interpretative possiblities out there.

Catholics have always found the Old Testament revealed in the New and the New Testament concealed in the Old. That's why we have readings from both Testaments at every Mass. This is known as typology and Cardinal Danielou once said that "prophecy is the typological interpretation of history."

What I've said all along and still insist is that all of the Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled. I've come to this conclusion by taking the many and various OT prophetic texts, reading them in the context of the whole of Scripture and treating them in their canonical order. In doing so, I've found these texts prove themselves to be a unified, coherent interpretation of salvation history.


Just as in the Book of the Revelation(The Apocalypse)1:8, Our Lord identifies Himself as the One "who is and who was and who is to come", Sacred Scripture reveals Almighty God's plan for us as salvation history in three parts----what was, what is, and what is to come.

Sacred Scripture begins with the Creation of the world and all that's in it, and ends with the consummation of the world and all that's in it, and then gives us a hint of what lies ahead in eternal life.


Sacred Scripture reveals salvation history in covenantal terms. The Covenant revealed a consistent pattern of how God would deal with His people IN EVERY AGE. Through the Covenant, Israel was established as God's people, first as a nation through Moses and then as a kingdom through David. The covenantal terms included rewards and punishments (curses) Deut.11:26-28. The covenant is what helped make sense of the events that befell Israel and its surrounding neighbors.

From age to age, Almighty God's deals with His people based on the consistent covenantal pattern of faithfulness, judgment and mercy. That’s why the ancient prophets described God’s future acts of deliverance in terms of His saving acts of the past. They used imagery to describe world ending events and, as we have seen in the Old Testament prophecy, they were correct, many worlds did come to an end.

--the Old Testament Babylonian world did come to an end.
--the Old Testament world of Pharoahs came to an end.
--the Old Testament Israelite world came to an end
--the Old Testament world of Second Temple Jews came to an end
--the New Testament Roman world came to an end
--the New Testament Byzantine world came to an end.
--the New Testament North African world came to an end.

------as will also the present world, the “what is” or "church age” part of human history come to an end. We know not the time nor the day for only God the Father knows.

The lesson I’ve learned from reading Scriptural prophecy, and yes, that most certainly includes the New Testament Book of Revelation is that the biblical apocalypse are timely for every age and not just the DEFINITIVE END of the world.

St.Matt 24:15, St.Luke 21 and the other passages that we have been discussing tell us that before a generation had time to pass from the scene, the world was supposed to pass away and make room for the kingdom of God. That’s exactly what happened (past tense, KFC). The world, then, to these particular people centered around the Temple microcosm, did indeed come to an end, and it was forty years, exactly one generation after Jesus had made His prediction. In Daniel’s 70th week, in 70AD, Jerusalem was destroyed and with it the Temple, which had been God’s dwelling place on earth. An end did come, it’s just not the one so many Futurists project onto the biblical prophets.

The Temple where biblical Judaism was practiced embodied the world as a microcosm. The destruction that brought down the Temple in 70AD was the end of biblical Judaism.

KFC, I agree with you that the prophecies foretold in St.Matt. 24 not only referred to the immediate future within the generation, but also to the distant future as well. I think the destruction that God brought down on the Temple was a fulfillment of prophecy, but also itself was a prophecy---Sort of a prophecy within a prophecy. The destruction of the Temple was a prophetic event that points to a cosmic event at the end of history.

You keep track...lol? I should have said "once again." I have no idea how many times I've done that but I know not nearly like you have I'm sure. Congrats.



there is more prophecies concerning the second coming then there are the first. Without going to the books to list a whole bunch of them (and I can do that) let's just say the OT prophets had plenty to say about the second coming and events leading towards that end. They have not ALL been fulfilled. Just a quick look at the OT book of Zech 12-14 is pretty clear they have not.

You can read about Armageddon in the book of Joel when it says "all" nations will go against Israel. We're close but it's not happened yet. You can see at the very end of Micah the result of the second coming when God will atone for Israel's sins and throw all into the sea. The Jews for many years (and I think still do) celebrate the Day of Atonement with a ceremony that they do at the water's edge where they have an enactment of themselves throwing their sins into the sea. This would look forward to the day that God makes it a reality.

Remember in Daniel (2:45) when Daniel foresaw all the kingdoms in order? Babylon, Persia, Greece, and then Rome? Then he saw a kingdom that would never be destroyed and it would consume all these other kingdoms and stand forever. He saw a stone (Christ) that was cut of of a mountain without hands and it broke in pieces all the other kingdoms.

Compare that to Psalm 2:8-9 where it says:

...I shall give you the heathen for your inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

David in the Psalms was saying the same thing as Daniel. Both OT prophecies.... NOT fulfilled. Christ, while HE has redeemed us at the cross has not yet claimed us and set up his Kingdom which he will do at the end of the time of the Gentiles. This is still future.

Also the whole of Daniel's interpretation of the staute of Chap 2 has not taken place. The 10 toes part clay and part iron have not taken place yet. This seems to be in our imminent future with the EU gaining strength as many have been predicting for years. Look for 10 strong counties to emerge with three falling by the wayside (Dan 7:20-24).

KFC POSTS:


Seriously, KFC, are there more OT prophecies concerning Christ's Second Advent when He comes in Judgment than of His First Advent of His birth, life, public ministry, Passion, Death, fulfilling the Old Covenant, Resurrection, and Ascension, (which Catholics celebrate this Thrusday, btw)? I never thought of prophecies in terms of how many there are of them. Has someone actually counted how many prophecies the OT contains?

All I've said and still maintain, even after you cite the prophecies of Zecharais, Micheas, Joel and Daniel, is that all OT prophecy has been fulfilled in Christ and His kingdom which is His everlasting Church which He will bring into the fullness of time at the end of the world.

Zecharais' second oracle, chapters 12-14, recapitulates the first oracle, the events of Daniel's last (70th) week--the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. This oracle seems puzzling unless we realize the vision comes after the shepherd story of Zecharais. In that object lesson, it becomes clear that GOd will 'be annulling the covenant which He made", so, the second oracle will concentrate on the New Covenant made with the new Jerusalem, aka 'the strong' covenant of Daniel's 70 weeks. The Chruch as the New Jerusalem comes into focus only after Zecharais envisions the Good Shepherd breaking the 2 staffs, "Grace" and "Union".

Check it out. You'll find that "that day" is found throughout the second oracle becasue the 7 decades of covenantal transition have taken front stage in Zecharais. We discover that at this time "all the nations of the earth will come together against" Jerusalem. 12:3, and that is certainly what happened when Titus invaded. His army was made up of soldiers from each of the 10 provinces of the Empire and even contained mercenaries from outside the Empire.

wow I feel as though I am going to bible school. Both KFC and LULA I would like to thank you both so much for furthering my education.


From the book of MOD: Chapter 1:verse 1. When a man stops learning about God, he has already died, his body just does not know it yet.

KFC POSTS:


All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ and His Kingdom. At Pentecost, His kingdom, the Chruch, His new chosen people, was begun. It was all set up, yes, in young acorn stage. He is guiding His Kingdom through its salvation history. We were made a part of His kingdom when we are baptized. You may say it's a spiritual kingdom, I say it's a visible society here on earth, it's the Church, the one He established and set on her way at Pentecost.

Yes, and I think I could probably come up with a list somewhere. I'll have to come back to this later tho. No time.

It doesn't seem to matter tho because if you can't see the future in Zech 12-14 you ain't buying anything else. How about Ezek 36-40? It's all future. It shows the countries that will go against Israel in the last days to destroy it. Chap 36 is about Israel coming into their own land before all this takes place. That happened in 1948. The Holocaust was not for nought. There was a reason behind all this. It's really interesting to see the countries even named. Russia and Iran are right there in the thick of it.

hahahah thanks MM. Keep in mind tho I'm looking at this from a futurist position believing many prophecies have NOT been fulfilled and Lula is saying they ALL have. The biggest question about them all being fulfilled tho is why isn't HE here then? Nothing more to fulfill then he should be here.

But I'll get back later when I have more time.

okay, then let's hear from Jesus himself when he quoted the OT book of Isaiah shall we? Look at Luke 4:14-21. I'll quote just a portion.

And there was delivered to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me becuse he has annointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind to set at liberty them that are bruised. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." and he closed the book and he gave it again to the minister and sat down. All the eyes of the all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say to them. "This day is the scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Jesus quoted the above from Isaiah 61:1-2a. Compare it. Notice He stopped reading in the middle of 61:2. Why? Because at His first coming he preached only the "acceptable year of the Lord." The "day of the vengeance of our God" (Isa 61:2b) was reserved for his second coming. Longsuffering and the cross are associated with His first coming, judgment and a crown with his second.

So it's clear that Isa was talking second coming in 61:2b and that's why Christ deliberately left that ending out before he said "THIS day is the scripture fulfilled..." Pretty simple.

Also if you keep reading in Isa it's all about the second coming. There is much in Isaiah that pertain to the second coming.

Let's look at another one in Isaiah...one you are familiar I'm sure. It's Isa 9:6-7 and one you've seen on Christmas cards.

"For unto us a child is born unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

Can you spot which is first coming and which is second? This is not all first coming Lula. For one thing the everlasting rule of the Messiah awaits the second coming and that has not happened yet.

KFC POSTS:


The simple answer is the Old Testament prophets, Micheas, Ezekiel, Zecharias, Daniel, etc., prophecies are fulfilled becasue they pointed either to events cncerning Israel that would happen in their near future as well as to the Messiah's First Advent and the things that He would accomplish. Those have all already been fulfilled...He did come...their prophecies were fulfilled...It's called His First Advent, the one we Christians celebrate at Christmas and what He accomplished during the 33 years of His life on earth as God-made man.

KFC POSTS:


After reading these two sections of Isaias’ prophecy and comparing those with the DR version of St.Luke, I still maintain that Isaais’ prophecy has been fulfilled. At the same time, I must concede that one (especially a self-described Futurist such as yourself KFC) could easily interpret Isaias 61: 2b as pointing to Christ’s Second Coming.

Of whether or not the prophecy of Isaias 61: 1-2, was fulfilled, I only have to examine our Lord’s own words. After reading the prophecy of Isaias, Jesus told them that on “this day is the Scripture fulfilled in your ears.” That Jesus Himself said Isaias prophecy has been fulfilled satisfies me that it’s been fulfilled.

According to the Douay Rheims Version of St.Luke 4:18-19, this is what Christ read, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. Wherefore he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he hath sent me to heal the contrite of heart, 19 to preach release to the captives, and sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of reward.” (I wonder why modern translations such as the NAB and KJV omit the last 5 words).

Isaias’ prophecy finds fulfillment in Christ, for He is the Anointed, the Messiah whom God sent, for the mission the Father has entrusted to Him. God has sent His son into the world-- to free His people from the bondage of sin and to liberate them from slavery to the devil and from eternal death.

These phrases according to St.Luke, v18-19, are the blessings God will send His people through the Messiah. According to the OT tradition and Jesus’ own preaching, ‘the poor’ is not so much to a social condition as to a very religious attitude of humility towards God which is to be found in those who, instead of relying on their possessions and merits, trust in God’s goodness and mercy. So, preaching the good news to the poor, means bringing them the good news that God has taken pity on them.
St.Luke also describes Jesus’ concern toward the economically and socially poor. They are at times, associated with the downtrodden, the oppressed, the afflicted, the forgotten and the neglected. The final definition of the “poor” will emerge in the Beatitudes.

Similarly, Redemption, the “release” is to be understood in a spiritual sense----that Christ has come to free us from the oppression of sin which is slavery imposed upon us by the devil. Physical captivity can be felt, but spiritual captivity referred to here is worse. It is true that Christ in His public ministry, in His mercy, worked many cures, and cast out devils, etc. But He didn’t cure everyone, nor did He eliminate all forms of distress in this life, because pain, which entered the world through sin, has a permanent redemptive value when associated with the sufferings of Christ.

“To preach the acceptable year”---this is a reference to the jubilee year of the Jews in which the Law of God (Lev. 25:8) lays down as occurring every 50 years symbolizing the era of redemption and liberation which the Messiah would usher in. In the NT, the “acceptable year” is the era inaugurated by Christ, the era of the New Law, the time of mercy and redemption which will end at the end of the world and be obtained definitively in Heaven.

The Catholic Church has continued to celebrate the 50 year jubilee and the last Holy Year of the Jubilee was celebrated by Pope John Paul II. During this time the Church focuses on proclaiming and reminding the faithful of the redemption brought by Christ and of the full form it will take in the future life in Heaven.

“Today, this Scripture passage has been fulfilled in your hearing” -- after Jesus reads the passage of Isaias in the Synagogue at Nazareth, He tells them that “today the Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing”. By saying this, He is telling them that He is the one of whom Isaias spoke. He’s identifying Himself as the Messiah, the Christ, the one Anointed by the Holy Spirit. Jesus teaches that this prophecy, like the other prophecies in the OT refers to Him and finds its fulfillment in Him. St.Luke 24:44. We know that some Nazareans believed and some didn’t. Again, St.Luke’s Gospel presents Jesus’ reading of Scripture as fulfillment of the OT prophecy of Isaias. For St.Luke, even Jesus’ suffering, death, and Resurrection are done in fulfillment of the Scriptures. 24: 25-27, 44-46 ; Acts 3:18.

Now, linking St.Luke with Isaias....................

Isaias 61:1-2, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, becasue the Lord hath anointed me: he hath sent me to preach to the meek, to heal the contrite of heart, and to preach a release to the captives, and deliverance to them that are shut up. 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God: to comfort all those that mourn:”

In Isaias 61:1-2, verse one depicts the eschatological messenger speaking a soliloquy. It has connections with the song of the Servant, the pouring out of the Spirit, but this messenger is more than a king, more than a prophet. Isaias prophecies His mission as a dual one--a messenger and a comforter. As a messenger, like a king in times of war, he brings good tidings, he announces redemption for the slaves, and release of the prisoners. His message proclaims a new order of things where there will be no need for repression, and where concord and well-being will prevail.

Here in verse 2, “the acceptable year of our Lord’s favor” is similar to the jubilee year in Lev. 25:8-9 or the sabbatical year, Ex. 21:2-11, Jer. 34:14, Ezek. 46:17. It can be taken as the time of favor at which God shows Himself to be most gracious and bestows definitive salvation. The ‘acceptable day’ is the time we are presently in.

“ The day of vengeance of our God” is essentially to some a day of good news. To the wicked, it’s a day that they too will receive their just deserts. The day of vengeance is a day of judgment and God’s judgment is not reserved for only the Final day of Judgment at Christ’s Second Coming. We know from Sacred Scripture and history that God has judged mankind time and again throughout the ages and will continue to do so until the end of the world and Christ’s Second Advent.

yes, but he didn't read the whole verse from Isaiah. He shut the book in the middle of the thought or verse. So what he quoted exactly was fulfilled yes. I agree. But the rest of the verse (he didn't read) is reserved for the second coming.

If you can't see that, then there's no use continuing on this subject. We'll have to just agree to disagree when it comes to the OT being completely fulfilled or not.



this is not the debate. It's after "the acceptable year of the Lord" that's at stake here.

I'm thinking your last five words is just worded diff? Are you sure it's in Luke and not Isaiah? Mine says "and the day of vengeance of our God to comfort all that mourn." Yours is saying reward. Both speak of 2nd coming. That's my whole point. But I do have a Gk bible that has the English underneath each word. I can check that out. If not, I'm wondering if the translator of the DR (a bishop messed with it after Jerome) ADDED to the words thinking that it was left out by mistake?



ok now we're getting to the nitty gritty. Why didn't he read it then? Because..... The day of vengeance HAS NOT happened yet. That's why Christ shut the book BEFORE he said "today this has been fulfilled in your hearing." He diliberately left that part out. Why? Becuase it was part of his second coming not his first. Even in Luke you can see it was deliberate by the wording of the whole scene. Christ said many times that he came to save not to destroy....the first time. Vengeance is for later.

Paul spoke of this same day in 2 Thess 1:7-8 when he said:

"And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

There's a ton just on this subject. To x-reference check Heb 10:26-31 (severe warning) Ps 79:6, Rev 21:8, 2 Peter 3:7...or "day of vengeance" Check it out yourself.

If you can't see this Lula, it's not because you CAN'T, it's because you WON'T because the CC commentary is not leading you and instead telling you something diff. Put down the commentary and look at both scriptures again. When God says to love him with your whole heart, soul and MIND...he meant it. You know me Lula...I have to say it...use your own mind not the CC's.

Also keep reading in Isaiah and see the thought continue...4-11 is speaking of the future millennial kingdom...hasn't happened yet. When has righteousness and praise to spring to God from ALL THE NATIONS happened?

Also look at Isaiah 63:1-6. Do you not see the same language in Revelation 14:18-20 and 19:13? Isaiah is pointing to the same thing that John would write about much later. Both reference the 2nd coming. When did this happen? Isaiah writes alot about the 2nd coming as do ALL the OT prophets.