Good Morning Bakerstreet! Its so good to see you again. This is my point exactly. There are always at least two realities, aren't here? The subjective version which includes our "full of ourselves" nature, i.e., "the Roman Empire" and all the toot that went with it, and the Rome that is throughout its history, on an objective level, a city that once was a city-state. It is our ideas about something that come and go.



Good Morning KFC! Rome is not Rome in the same way that Romans thought of Rome at the time we are talking about. At that time, Rome was a city-state, powerful, dominating the world as an empire. This is hardly the Rome of today. So is Rome still there? I don't think so. Its the same as when philosophers announced God was dead. They were not talking about God as a entity, but rather our ideas about him.

Moreover, there are real problem with prophetic approaches to understanding history. They tend to be like horoscopes. We naturally "see" the event in the light of what we are told it might be. The author of Daniel had no idea at all that there would be a EU.

Be well.

The Jewish temple in Jerusalem has to be rebuilt first before all this stuff happens.

Reply By: KFC Kickin For ChristPosted: Thursday, May 03, 2007

 

not according to what I read, the Anti-Christ will cause the temple to be rebuilt.

Reply By: Gideon MacLeishPosted: Thursday, May 03, 2007 What? You want the Antichrist should be Goyim? (said in best Jewish mother voice).

There in lies the trick, the Jews will not accept a Messiah from any stock but their own.

Reply By: KFC Kickin For ChristPosted: Thursday, May 03, 2007 what wonderful writings, even if you plugged your own blogsite. heh heh Sorry....is that a no no? I haven't really gotten to the part about the AC yet but will eventually since he does have a major part....heh.

naw, plug your site all you want KFC,. I was just funnin yer.

SODAIHO POSTS:

I've always thought the author of Daniel was Daniel himself. He was so renowned for his wisdom and knowledge that it became a proverb among the Babylonians , “as wise as Daniel”, Ezekiel 28:3. Ezekiel 14 mentions his holiness. Evidently he’s not commonly numbered by the Hebrews among the Prophets, but if we consider his many clear predictions of things to come, we shall find that no one better deserves the name and title of a prophet, which also has been given him by the Son of God Himself, StMatt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

As far as Daniel having an idea at all of the EU, I quite agree with you, Sodaiho.

Daniel, through his visions, predicted the following:
--that the Roman Empire would be in power when the Messiah came.
--that the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its Temple as a precondition of the Christ's First Advent.
--the Great Tribulation of Christ's fledgling Church.
--The Passion of our Lord along with its benefits.
--The establishment of the new strong covenant.
--The destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, and of biblical Judaism. God broke His relationship forever during Daniel’s 70th week.
--He even predicted his own final judgment. These events all happened; they are done deals; they are fulfilled.

What Daniel did not predict and is still in the future is the Second Advent of Christ when He will come again to judge all mankind, the living and the dead.

Even from a historical understanding, Daniel’s overall message has been fulfilled. Namely, that God’s spiritual kingdom was established when the Messiah was born during the ancient Roman Empire. Daniel's 70 weeks ended in 67 to 70 AD, by which time the blessings bestowed on Christ’s Church were evident in the world. Christ’s birth, death, Resurrection, and founding of the Church and the judgment of those who rejected Him and His new kingdom are the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecies.

All these events of Daniel's prophecy while already fulfilled point to tribulation, present and future, and to a still future death and resurrection of the world itself, and then the founding of a new heaven and a new earth at the final eschaton.

Whether or not the EU is figured to play into the future tribulation in which Antichrist plays a part is conjecture.

Well I wouldn't doubt this and it's most probable but all in God's timing. I'm sure the AC will be behind it in some form or fashion. The next thing on the prophetic timeline is either the temple being built or the rapture of the church....and that's a whole nuther subject



heh! I actually thought you had to actually put in a link for this to be a legit plug....which I don't think I've ever done on someone else's site.....but thanks for the invite to do so.

I want a tribe.  

This is only true from a preterist's view which is not a view I hold.

How can these events be all fulfilled? Have you read this book? Look at 12:1 and 2 for instance...it says:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people (Jews) and there shall be a time of trouble which as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written the book."

When did this happen Lula? 70AD? What about the Holocaust? Michael, the archangel, is known for his protection of Israel (still today). "Thy people" are the Jews. This is being said to Daniel. His people were the Jews. When were they delivered? They lost in 70 AD. They have not been delivered YET. They have been brought into their own land for a purpose. How about the next verse?

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

When did this happen Lula? This is the Jews. Again, you may want to really check out the Preterist View a bit more thoroughly including when it was first introduced....not a coincidence I might add. There's a definite agenda behind it. The early church did not believe this Preterist view...including Paul, John, Iraenous, Polycarp, Justin Martyr etc.

The 70th week of Daniel is still future. The first 69 weeks have happened. There is a lull (church age) that we are in right now. The 70th week is the beginning of the tribulation period (time of Jacob's trouble...Day of the Lord) and has not happened yet. This is when God will turn back to the Jews and this will happen predicted by Zechariah in the OT:

"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness..and it shall come to pass in that day said the Lord of hosts that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land and they shall no more be remembered and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land."

This has not happened yet. They have only been in their land since 1948. They have been scattered since 70AD....and the land is not even close to being clean right now with what's going on currently. I believe it's clear the unclean spirits are still inhabiting the land. This is definitely future...after the tribulation.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS: What Daniel did not predict and is still in the future is the Second Advent of Christ when He will come again to judge all mankind, the living and the dead.

Even from a historical understanding, Daniel’s overall message has been fulfilled. Namely, that God’s spiritual kingdom was established when the Messiah was born during the ancient Roman Empire. Daniel's 70 weeks ended in 67 to 70 AD, by which time the blessings bestowed on Christ’s Church were evident in the world. Christ’s birth, death, Resurrection, and founding of the Church and the judgment of those who rejected Him and His new kingdom are the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecies.

All these events of Daniel's prophecy while already fulfilled point to tribulation, present and future, and to a still future death and resurrection of the world itself, and then the founding of a new heaven and a new earth at the final eschaton.


KFC POSTS: This is only true from a preterist's view which is not a view I hold.

1. I wrote that the Book of Daniel did not predict the Second Advent of Christ when He will come again to judge all mankind, the living and the dead.

Is this your view or not? If not, where in the Book of Daniel can this be found?

2. I wrote that historically Daniel’s overall message has been fulfilled and then went on to name those.

They are:
a) that God’s spiritual kingdom was established when the Messiah was born during the ancient Roman Empire.

It's true is it not that the early Christian Church was established during the ancient Roman Empire.

that Daniel's 70 weeks ended in 67 to 70 AD, by which time the blessings bestowed on Christ’s Church were evident in the world.

It's true is it not that the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD meant the end of biblical Judaism as even rabbis of today will attest. Their exclusive power to share God with the nations was gone forever. They were dispersed. Jesus said that Daniel's Son of man would come in judgment during the Sanhedrin's generation. The coming of Daniel 7 and St.Matt 26 occurred before the close of the first century AD. So, unless Jesus was untruthful or mistaken, this prophecy has already been fulfilled. Jesus judged Jerusalem with the Roman army in 70 AD. He predicted that event in StLuke 19:42-44. Jesus fulfilled Daniel's Son of Man prophecy in Heaven.

Now, up until the time that Herod's Temple with its animal sacrifices was destroyed in 70AD, the people always viewed the fledgling Christian Church a sect within Judaism and this caused great confusion. Within the generation of His accusers, Christ with His judgment eliminated the confusion. The Old Covenant system of animal sacrifices was gone forever, and the Chruch was free to grow unencumbered of biblical Judaism.

c) that Christ’s birth, death, Resurrection, and founding of the Church and the judgment of those who rejected Him and His new kingdom are the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecies.

It's true that these specific events all have been fulfilled if and only if the book of Daniel is interpreted without wanting to first justify a still future seven year Great Tribulation. Jesus clearly told the Sanhedrin that they would see evidence of the coming of the Son of man as predicted in Daniel 7:13. Yet, KFC, you want to place these events in the future even for our time. Doing so we'd have to believe that on the eve of His Crucification Jesus made the promise to the Sandhedrin, but that His timing was off by at least 2,000 years and counting!

I don't want to get off track Lula. This thread is about the Anti Christ so I don't want to get into some of the stuff you have here. I'm sure as I continue to go thru Revelation this stuff will come up.

I don't believe the 70 weeks are fulfilled. I believe that 69 are with the 70th week of Daniel suspended until the coming tribulation. I believe the 7 year trib which is about to come will be the start of the 70th week.

Check into Sir Robert Anderson's "The Coming Prince." He came out of England I believe and his book was widely accepted as a formula for these 70 weeks of Daniel. He was true to scripture and outlines all that you spoke of here.

The abomination of desolation that Christ spoke of in Matt 24:15 has to do with the Anti Christ declaring himself as God sitting in the yet unbuilt temple, and HE pointed to Daniel's prophecy. So obviously this hasn't happened yet. The temple was destroyed before it could happen. it's still future. Daniel is both history and prophecy. Some is still to come.

KFC POSTS: How can these events be all fulfilled? Have you read this book? Look at 12:1 and 2 for instance...it says:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people (Jews) and there shall be a time of trouble which as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written the book."

When did this happen Lula? 70AD? What about the Holocaust? Michael, the archangel, is known for his protection of Israel (still today). "Thy people" are the Jews. This is being said to Daniel. His people were the Jews. When were they delivered? They lost in 70 AD. They have not been delivered YET. They have been brought into their own land for a purpose. How about the next verse?

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

When did this happen Lula? This is the Jews.


As you know, KFC, the Book of Daniel was written during the horrific persecution carried on by Antiochus IV Epiphanes 167-164 BC, who was thought to be the Antichrist or type of AC, in order to strengthen and comfort the Jewish people in their ordeal. 12:1 you reference refers specifically to the tribulation time of Antiochus's persecution and also we know that Daniel's visions promise deliverance to the Jews in the days to come.

Verse 12:1 may be interpreted to give all God's chosen people (both of the Old and New Covenants) undergoing past and future tribulation comfort that Michael the Archangel shall stand up for them with all things relating to the Antichrist and the end of the world which the people of those times thought they were experiencing. So, in one sense it has already been fulfilled and in another, it shall be fulfilled in the tribulation just before the end of the world and Christ comes gloriously to judge the living and the dead.

The last sentence means that the only ones who will be delivered saved throughout these times of tribulation, past and future, are those whose names are already written in the book of life which only God has and knows. All the others perish physiucally and spiritually.

I've seen two explanations for verse 12:2 one that applies to the time of the persecution of Antiochus' persecution and one that would apply to everyone, not just Jews, on the last day when Christ comes for the Final Judgment.

To explain the former, just before the last vision of Daniel begins, there is a description of a 'spiritual resurrection' that occurs immediately after a severe tribulation. As you know, elsewhere Holy Scripture uses language to refer to spiritual rebirth. Remember Ezekiel's vision of dry bones that come back to life?

This mention of spiritual resurrection is still referring to the time of Antiochus' persecution. This phrase describes the revival of biblical Judaism under the Machabees after the great battle and defeat of ANtiochus. The priestly family of the Hasmonians had prevailed in the war, and the Temple was reconsecrated by Judas Machabee, the people of GOd were renewed and biblical Judaism was resurrected, In that sense, the was a biblical rebirth in Jerusalem. The Jewish nation won complete independence by 142 BC.

The latter and most common meaning of verse 12:2 is that on the last day CHrist will come in all His Glory and judge the living and the dead. Those who are already dead will rise from their graves, be joined with their bodies, and every knee will bend before the Judge. So will those who are still alive at the time of our Lord's Second Coming. Some will be judged to live in life everlasting and some will be in everlasting death of horror and disgrace.

I'll respond to the rest of your remarks hopefully on Monday.

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, I can assure you that the vast majority of the early CHruch, as did common Jewish interpretation of that time, saw Daniels' 70 weeks ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

"In the holy scriptures you can make no progress unless you have a guide to show you the way ... The art of interpreting the scriptures is the only one of which all men everywhere claim to be masters ... The babbling old woman, the doting old man, and the wordy sophist, one and all take in hand the Scriptures, rend them in pieces and teach them before they have learned them. Some with brows knit and bombastic words, contrary to one another, philosophize concerning the sacred writings among weak women. Others (I blush to say it) learn from women what they are to teach men; and as if even this were not enough, they boldly explain to others what they themselves by no means understand. I say nothing of persons who, like myself have been familiar with secular literature before they have come to the study of the holy scriptures. Such men when they charm the popular ear by the finish of their style suppose every word they say to be a law of God. They do not deign to notice what Prophets and apostles have intended but they adapt the most incongruous passages to fit their own interpretation, as if it were a grand way of teaching—and not rather the faultiest of all—to misrepresent a writer's views and to force the reluctant scriptures to do their will. —St. Jerome, to Paulinus (Letter LIII), A.D. 394.

First your explanation of 12:1-2 doesn't make sense. What about the names written in the book? This is end time talk, not 168 BC Talk. Also Daniel was way long dead before Epiphanes. Daniel wrote while in captivity to Babylon in 537 BC not during Epiphanes' time.

Daniel did write about the future coming of Epiphanes but he also wrote about the future Anti-Christ.

Read Daniel 9:24-27 very carefully. Notice that there is a separation of weeks. 62 weeks....7 weeks for a total of 69 and .....then the Messiah will be crucified so we see a separation here. Certain important events were to happen after the 62 weeks (plus the 7 weeks for a total of 69); the crucifixion of the Messiah and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. Because these events were to occur after the 69 weeks had run their course and before the 70th week began, there must be a space of time between the conclusion of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th.

That's why I suggested you read "The Coming Prince." In it he shows using scripture and the history of these events to show that the command to restore and build the Temple by Nehemiah in 445 BC was the first seven weeks. It took 49 years. The 69th week was calculated from the first seven weeks or 49 years right up to the day Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey during crucifixtion week. The last 7 weeks have not happened yet. Epiphanes, while predicted by Daniel happened before Christ or in 165 or so BC. Antiochus' persecution of the Jews lasted for 2,300 days from 171 BC to Dec 25th 165 BC.

As far as early church being preterists....I already, on my site got into this showing how Justin Martyr and Ireanous were futurists with Justin Martyr coming up with the futurist belief of Revelation in something like 165 AD. They were NOT preterists. That belief didn't even come into play as far as I know until AFTER the reformation in 1641 or so.

MASONM POSTS:


Yes, MasonM, St.Jerome says it just like it is. I agree with him and try to follow his plain talking advice as best I can. That's why I read the Douay Rheims BIble as it is the most accurate translation of St.Jerome's Latin Vulgate Bible which in turn is an accurate word for word translation from the original languages.

I do not rely on my own private interpretation when I read Holy Scripture. I believe just as God gave us His written Word, He also gave us the Catholic Chruch to teach and lead us to Him. I read and understand Scripture interpretated for us by the Church becasue God entrusted the Sacred Scripture to her as part of His Word and gave the Chruch His promise that she would never err in telling us what it means and explaining to us the "many things hard to be understood" which St.Peter tells us are to be found within it. So, in short, the Catholic Church established by God as His mouthpiece and official interpreter of Sacred Scripture is my guide.

KFC POSTS:

KFC, ALL prophecy from the OT prophets, including Daniel and this one quoted from Zacharais, has been fulfilled by the events of Christ’s birth, death, Resurrection, Ascension into Heaven, and the founding of His kingdom on earth, the Church.

Ch. 1-8 of Zacharias’ prophecy encourages the Jews of the 6th century BC with the promised coming of the Messiah. His prophecy starts with that time and culminates with the events of Christ’s First Advent, the Incarnation. He builds on Daniel’s 70 weeks which viewed the seven decades that began with Christ’s conception as a time of covenantal transition. You mention, “Day of the Lord”, well, Zacharais uses the phrase ‘day of the Lord” or “that day” as equivalent or identical to Daniel’s 70th week. That’s how he states when certain events will occur. There is no 2,000 + year old “lull” between the 69th week and 70th because everything he prophesied was fulfilled by 70 AD.


Zacharias 13:1-2, “In that day there shall be a fountain open to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; for the washing of the sinner and of the unclean woman. 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of Hosts, that I will destroy the names of idols out of the earth, and they shall be remembered no more, and I will take away the false prophets and the unclean spirit out of the earth.”


The “fountain” is Christ and Zacharais develops this further in 14:8. The fountain flows with “living water” which will cleanse them from sin. This is in contrast to the lustrual water used in the OT purification rite of the “unclean woman”. The “inhabitants of Jerusalem” here are the Christians of Hebrew origin.

Next, v. 2, we learn that ‘on that day’ God will definitively defeat the idols that some Jews were worshipping. This happened at the 70th week or the destruction of Jerusalem when Herod’s Temple went toppling down and no stone was left on top of an other. Earlier in Zacharias 5:3, the worship of these idols is evidenced by 2 actions, lying and stealing. The idols were material wealth and comfort gained by deceit and power. The antidote is to love truth and peace 8:19. This theme of Truth is followed through in St.John’s Apocalypse.


So, yes, KFC, this has all happened.