#30 by Dr. Guy Saturday, October 29, 2005

am pro life. Do I not count?

of course you count doc, sheeeshhh, I want some other pro-life people.

hugs doc,

Ok well Im a pro-lifer here MM so here goes.

I guess it all depends on what you call suicide. There are those that are dying that refuse to take meds...to me that isnt suicide. Im a Pentacostal so I have the whole...."God can help you out" thing going on. I guess I cant define exactly what it is. To me, I think of suicide as a way to get out. I think of it as a thing that people do, when they very well have plenty of life left, that they just for whatever reason, decide to end it.

For those who are dying and know they are...like they have been told so, their decision to stop taking meds is not suicide as they are already dying. They just want to have a better life of whats left.

Suicide is just a thing where people make choices based on things in the past and what they think lies in the future. I personally believe that God can handle everything. If Im stressed out...I take a deep breath...give my problems to God and its off my shoulders. That doesnt mean I still dont have those problems to work out...but I know that whatever happens is for a purpose. I know that God has a plan for me and my life, and its not for bad things. I may endure some troubling times, maybe some really crappy times...but I know that God is there by me and he will help me through; and if i die...I know where im going. From my standpoint....your life has a plan. Many people decide not to follow it. Ive tried my best to follow Gods will and I have had hard times and I have had great times (aka...Marcie in my life). If you take the life that God has given you and do whatever you want, then you are going to run into situations where you are at what seems like a dead end.

In my life, if there is a closed door...that means Im not supposed to go on until Im ready or God wants me to. Right now, we moved to MN and are having a very hard time at the moment (probably the hardest in our relationship) as far as finances. Im not working as much as I was told so Im looking for part time jobs...so for the moment, Im not going anywhere. When I do get some extra jobs and $$, then Im sure some doors will be opened and we can go on.

Earlier someone said its ok to do it, and one of the reasons was to help stop the pain others have. This was in a medical example. Personally...I dont think thats right. I mean...if my Mom was dying....I wouldnt want her to commit suicide. If she was dying...her presence and everything she is to me and everyone by far outweighs the pain that we may have.

If Im going to die...then Ill die...but until then...Im not going to stop God from doing what he wants in my life. Thats why Im here. His plan isnt so I can open the door for someone when Im 92. But its to do something incredible in my life that will positively affect the others around me. I dont know what it is, but I know I have a purpose. By ending my own life early...thats basically saying I dont trust in God and what he can do in my life.

of course you count doc, sheeeshhh, I want some other pro-life people. hugs doc,

Sorry MM.  Taking care of a sick wife.  Guess I got testy!  {{{hugs}}} back to ya big guy!

Not having read the comments yet, as I wanted to put out my thoughts before hand. There have been times I have been at that abyss. During those times, it seemed to take more strength to continue, than to not. And this is what the abyss does to ones thinking. Yet, while in that thinking I thought I was doing all my loved ones a favor. I didnt feel it selfish. I felt life was selfish in the hand it had dealt me. Now, I see it differently. I have to play the cards that life has dealt me, and that suicide is letting the depression make the decisions. Not me. Having also been on the other side of loosing loved ones to suidcide, while at the abyss, and thinking of this, i realize even then, it is a selfish act. Done out of what seems like, at the time a unselfish motive. I choose life, while understanding both sides of the abyss. All of that said, if one is suffering from an illness that will leave them in incredible pain, and make them live on and on in pain, knowing the disease is fatal. Now, that's another can of worms.
Good Questions MM!

To: Nicky G.

Good point. how can one measure bodily pain such as a fast moving cancer verses emotional pain. Hadn't really thought of it that way

Then there is the question of mass suicides. Although not entirely suicide by the strictest sense of the word, since some members of the group do not know they are committing suicide. (children)

Some of the modern examples are Heavens Gate, David Koresh and his group, and perhaps the craziest of them all, the Reverend Jim Jones et al.
But there are more examples thoughout history. Examples that are not so easily dismissed as extreme nutcases. The Jews at Masada, who, when cornered and left with the prospect of a life of slavery under the Romans, chose death at their own hands instead.

Another example would be the Taino Indians who collectively jumped of a cliff in Puerto Rico, after seeing 2/3 of their people wiped out by Christopher Columbus' men.
Even African blacks, as they were being transported to the New World as part of the slave trade, were known to take their own lives.

In all cases it extends from feelings of deep despair and indefensible endagerment, not unlike the individual facing unbearable pain and then death from an incurable ailment. The feelings are the same, just multiplied throughout the whole group.

Whether it's "permissable" or not is between you and God.

Or, to this old atheist, between me and my dog.

Or, to this old atheist, between me and my dog.

A dyslexic atheist?

Reply By: ZiggystylesPosted: Saturday, October 29, 2005Ok well Im a pro-lifer here MM so here goes.

lots of food for thought here thank you ziggy

Reply By: Dr. GuyPosted: Saturday, October 29, 2005of course you count doc, sheeeshhh, I want some other pro-life people.hugs doc,Sorry MM. Taking care of a sick wife. Guess I got testy! {{{hugs}}} back to ya big guy!

did not know about wife doc, clue me in a little more, although I cannot heal her I can shoot prayers skyward.

Reply By: MissT(Anonymous User)Posted: Sunday, October 30, 2005Not having read the comments yet, as I wanted to put out my thoughts before hand. There have been times I have been at that abyss. During those times, it seemed to take more strength to continue, than to not. And this is what the abyss does to ones thinking. Yet, while in that thinking I thought I was doing all my loved ones a favor. I didnt feel it selfish. I felt life was selfish in the hand it had dealt me. Now, I see it differently. I have to play the cards that life has dealt me, and that suicide is letting the depression make the decisions. Not me. Having also been on the other side of loosing loved ones to suidcide, while at the abyss, and thinking of this, i realize even then, it is a selfish act. Done out of what seems like, at the time a unselfish motive. I choose life, while understanding both sides of the abyss. All of that said, if one is suffering from an illness that will leave them in incredible pain, and make them live on and on in pain, knowing the disease is fatal. Now, that's another can of worms. Good Questions MM!

what makes this so important to ME is when I reacvh any kind of crossroads I want to be prepared just in case I "opt out"

Reply By: little_whipPosted: Sunday, October 30, 2005We begin the process of dying the moment we are born. Suicide simply adjusts the time frame.Whether it's "permissable" or not is between you and God.

yep I have trouble imagining a just and kind GOD thinking, suffer, destroy all the lives around you with a protracted illness, then die. just does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

I think Dr. Guy summed it up best in his first reply. There is no right or wrong answer.

As one who has worked to counter a youth full of self destructiveness (the consequences of which I must deal with on a regular basis), I have to feel that, as selfish as suicide appears to be to some, it is far less selfish than a life of indulgence and self destructive behaviour that characterizes the lives of so many who, for one reason or another, have never "completed the act".

Suicide can, in certain contexts, be the ultimate in selfishness. When, for instance, a troubled teen commits suicide despite the efforts of many loved ones to reach him, it is a selfish act. When an individual troubled with the deterioration of their mind and body and knowing that there is no hope of improvement quietly takes an overdose of sleeping pills after informing their family of their decision and to spare their family the pain and agony of watching that slow deterioration, it CAN BE a completely selfless act. The answers are as varied as the individual.

This is one area where I really try to reserve judgement. There are some things in life I JUST DON'T KNOW!

#44 by Gideon MacLeish Sunday, October 30, 2005

think Dr. Guy summed it up best in his first reply. There is no right or wrong answer. As one who has worked to counter a youth full of self destructiveness (the consequences of which I must deal with on a regular basis), I have to feel that, as selfish as suicide appears to be to some, it is far less selfish than a life of indulgence and self destructive behaviour that characterizes the lives of so many who, for one reason or another, have never "completed the act". Suicide can, in certain contexts, be the ultimate in selfishness. When, for instance, a troubled teen commits suicide despite the efforts of many loved ones to reach him, it is a selfish act. When an individual troubled with the deterioration of their mind and body and knowing that there is no hope of improvement quietly takes an overdose of sleeping pills after informing their family of their decision and to spare their family the pain and agony of watching that slow deterioration, it CAN BE a completely selfless act. The answers are as varied as the individual. This is one area where I really try to reserve judgement. There are some things in life I JUST DON'T KNOW!

the great thing about this particular article is I am seeking answers from all quarters, again I state there are no right or wrong answers as I am not looking for a particular thought. I just want food for my own thought process.

thank you gid.

MM

did not know about wife doc, clue me in a little more, although I cannot heal her I can shoot prayers skyward.

Dont sweat it.  I think it is another sinus infection.  If she is not better today, I am going to drag her to the doctor.