America has problems, but America is NOT THE PROBLEM!~
Simple, But the truth of things
Published on November 16, 2008 By Moderateman In Religion

I subscribe to NO RELIGION in particular, even though I Identify with being a JEW because simply enough I was born one.

I find all Religion an anthema, For one very easy reason, they all subscribe to the following " OUR WAY IS THE ONLY WAY TO G-D'S HOUSE"! As soon as I hear this one statement from any religion they lose me completely. My personal belief is there are many paths to G-D's house after death and for any ONE religion to lay claim to know G-D's mind in this matter is hypocrisy to the nth degree.

No human can possibly know G-D's mind or how he feels about what it takes to get to his house. We must remember the bibles,  both old and new were written by man not the hand of G-D, far as I can tell nothing of this earth was written by G-d him or herself, so this leaves out all this religious wars in HIS name as a reason, truthfully religious wars are made because of men trying to impose their interpretation of what other men wrote on other men and women. there can be no war in G-D's name because no one can understand what G-D wants in the first place. I hear many people say their way is the only way to G-D's house; what a crock! How dare anyone think they can exclude billions of people from a loving G-D's home because they are not of the same "religion" yet I see and hear this constantly! all I have to say is world? get a clue; no one religion has locks on how to get to G-D's house after death. not a single one!


Comments (Page 14)
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on Dec 15, 2008

There seemed to be a problem with ADs last post?

on Dec 15, 2008

There seemed to be a problem with ADs last post?

I'm not following, did I mess something up I can't see?  Looks fine to me.

on Dec 15, 2008

Jesus was the Christ, the Messias, the Anointed One prophecied by the OT prophets.

He might be your Messiah, but he is not the Messiah of Judaism. We have been through the prophecies you refer to. Your interpretation depends on faulty translations and leaps.

Judaism has certain requirements for a Messiah. I'll simply repeat two of them until the second coming.

Jesus didn't rebuild the Temple and did not make peace in Israel. Those two points alone disqualify him as the Messiah according to Jewish belief.

 

on Dec 15, 2008

I'm posting this as a test......as I am experiencing a problem with being able to pull up any comments beyond AD's # 201.  I see from the main page that there are 209 comments listed, but I can only go to AD's 201 comment.

  

on Dec 15, 2008

Did that fix it?

 

on Dec 15, 2008

Hey AD, I still can't read 210, but at least we have a comment box now where there wasn't one before

 

See ya!

on Dec 15, 2008

Hey AD, I still can't read 210, but at least we have a comment box now where there wasn't one before



See ya!

Did that fix the rest?

It turns out pasting from MS Word breaks forum.

on Dec 15, 2008

t turns out pasting from MS Word breaks forum.

Why would you paste from MS Word?

Seems awfully complicated to me. I type either in the in the comment box or in Notepad/TextEdit.app (fast and guaranteed text only).

Anyway, MS Word adds all sorts of funny characters to text. Avoid using it for anything but _documents_. It's not a good editor. Use Notepad.

on Dec 15, 2008

All this talk about rebuilidng the Temple is nothing but endtime speculation.

then how do you address DAniel, Jesus and Paul who spoke of a future time when the Anti-Christ will sit in the temple and declare himself god (history repeating itself)?  The Temple will be built Lula.  My guess it's soon most definitely in our lifetime.  What will you say then? 

It turns out pasting from MS Word breaks forum.

yeah I couldn't post here either.  Couldn't get past AD's #201 as well. 

Why would you paste from MS Word?

Seems awfully complicated to me. I type either in the in the comment box or in Notepad/TextEdit.app (fast and guaranteed text only).

that's what I was thinking.  I usually just type in the comment box as well.  Too bothersome to transfer from anything else. 

AD

I'll get back to you on your Romans 11.  I wanted to reply today before it got wonky but will have time later to do so.  What your wife  said is true.

 

 

on Dec 15, 2008

Jesus didn't rebuild the Temple and did not make peace in Israel. Those two points alone disqualify him as the Messiah according to Jewish belief.

He also said he's coming back.  That hasn't happened yet either. 

When he does, according to Zechariah (in the OT)  that's when the Jews' eyes will be opened and they will sorrow for Him.  That will be the ultimate Day of Atonement for the whole nation. 

 

on Dec 15, 2008

ad posts: 161

Really? Hmm, I thought the temple was still intact during his life and when Jesus referred to the 'church' he was referring to the Temple?

Yes, the second Temple was intact during Jesus' life.  It was Herod who finished Zerrubbabel's efforts, by initiating a massive reconstruction project in 20 BC and completed around 10 BC. This is the same Temple that Christ told the Apostles that within their generation would be totally destructed St.Matt. 24 and history confirms the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70AD.  

And yes, there is definitely a connection between the Church and the Temple.

AD POSTS: #169 [quote]What about the 3rd Temple?

KFC POSTS: # 174

What about the rebuilt temple? How is that related to "ecclesia?" I believe the Temple will be rebuilt but that's dealing with the Jews only; not the Gentiles....... 2 Thess Chap 2 for one thing. My belief is that the new Temple will lead the nation Israel to a very somber literal Day of Atonement which is the 6th Feast of Lev 23.

KFC,

"Temple will be rebuilt"?  Does 2Thess.2 teach this very specific prediction of yours? I don't think so. As a matter of fact in the first part of that St.Paul warns the Thessalonians against such things.

He teaches 2 premonitory signs have to take place before our Lord's Second Coming (Parousia) to judge all nations...one, there's going to be a massive rebellion or apostasy of the faithful from God. Here, St. Paul is basically repeating what our Lord Jesus said in St.Matt. 24:12 . Just as false prophets came and lead people astray before the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem in 70AD, the same will happen and as a result of following or believing false teachers, people will no longer love and believe in God.   

Two, the "man of lawlwssness", "the son of perdition" is revealed. This passage assumes the Church will be around when the man of lawlessness revealed. That will be during the final confrontation between good and evil, referrred to in the Apocalypse as the battle with God and Magog. Christians will participate in that confrontation becasue there will be no secret Rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who we already know as the Victor..and that's the reassurance St.Paul offers here.

As to the details of the "man of lawlessness", "the son of perdition", we don't really know who or what these expressions indicate other than a forceful evil adversary of God actively deceiving many of God's people in the world. It could refer to a uniquely evil individual like that of the "antichrist" in St.John or could refer to all the forces of evil ( a system) that Satan uses to pursue his ends. St.Paul stresses that this "man of lawlessness", "the son of perdition" is so brazen that "he takes his seat in the temple of God".  That is, he is going to proclaim himself/itself to be God and insist on divine worship.  "By taking the seat in the Temple of God" means he's going to somehow subvert the worship of the true God.  

Now, let's go to the Greek word for temple, which is naos. St.Paul never once uses naos to designate the Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem (which is hieron 1Cor.9:13). When St.Paul uses naos, he's referring to New Covenant temples which could include either the Church or the individual Christian, both of which are New Covenant temples indwelt by the Holy SPirit. 1Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19; 2Cor. 6:16, and Eph. 2:21.

So, St.Paul, along with all the Christians, believed that Christ had predicted the the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple within their generation, but they never believed this destruction would leave the world without any Temple. The new temple was God's spiritual Temple, the Church, with Jesus Christ her Eternal Priest. St.Paul always used the word naos in the New Covenant context....He understood the New Testament Chruch as the new Temple...and according to their writings so did the Fathers of the Chruch.

This passage concerning the antichrist and the details of his progress still remains a mystery. However, to believe St.Paul taught a future literal, physical rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple is very poor proof text of Rapturist's beliefs.

 

 

on Dec 15, 2008

AD POSTS:

What about the 3rd Temple?

LEAUKI POSTS:

Jews believe that it will be built when the Messiah comes.

Muslims and Christians believe that he Messiah was Jesus and will return for that purpose.

Who are the Christians who believe that Jesus will return for the purpose of literally rebuilding the Jerusalem Temple?

Just to be clear, both the Church and Sacred Scripture teach that Christ will return on "the Day of the Lord" which will come like a thief in the night. No one but God the Father knows when. Unlike His first Advent, as a baby born of the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem, Christ's Second Coming (Parousia) will be unmistakable and gloriously public. And no one will escape.

First, Christ's return will win the victory. 2Thess. 2:8, Just as antichrist and his forces are surrounding the camp of the saints, fire will come down from heaven and consume them. Apoc. 20:9. Our Lord will appear and "slay him with his breath and destroy him by His appearing  and His coming."

From there the Resurrection will follow....whether we are dead or alive at the Christ's Second Advent, Everyone will be raised and then comes the Final Judgment. Christ will judge the living and the dead. The wicked will be separated from God forever and the eternal life will be granted to the righteous. Some will spend eternity in Hell and some will spend will be in God's presence forever.

That's it....no rebuilding the Jerusalem Temple...no future millenium...none of that stuff.

  

on Dec 16, 2008

SODAIHO POSTS:

I understand the messiah to be less a person than a nation: the people of the world uniting to be one with God.

KFC POSTS: # 192

This belief didn't come into being until AFTER the resurrection. Answers had to be given for why the so-claimed Messiah was not accepted and the religious Jews reworked the scriptures and placed a nation where a human Messiah was to be. In the first century Jesus was asked if he were the one. John the Baptist was also asked this. Was he the one they were expecting?

Good response KFC. Only thing I would change is I'd call them irreligious Jews or Revolutionary Jews...they are the hard bitten ones who witnessed Jesus' miracles of healing lepers, making the blind see, raising the dead, forgiving sin, etc. and still made Him out to be the enemy and destroyer of the Temple and of the Law. Vah! Vah! Vah! Thou who are the Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life. Vah!  Thou who are the Christ, the King of Isreal. Vah! When Pilate asked, shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, we (the Jewish people) have no king but Ceasar...and from that moment on Judaism was wed to the state and has been ever since.

LEAUKI POSTS:

I don't see why there would be reason to "rework" scripture to allow for non-acceptance of another failed Messiah candidate.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Talmud,  "reworked" Scripture?  

 

SODAIHO POSTS:

Most Jews have abandoned the idea of rebuiding the temple in Jerusalem, although there is a movement afoot to do so, I understand.

KFC POSTS: #192

There is. According to my Jewish friend here who visits Israel twice a year, he said they're all ready. They've got everything but permission to do so. Also according to scripture in more than one place the third temple is to be built and will be the center of last days prophecy.

   LEAUKI POSTS: #195

Jewish law prohibits Jews from even walking on the Temple Mount, let alone pray or build structures there until the Messiah comes. (Even Jesus is not currently here.)

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/images/jerusalem/temple-mount/temple-mount-signs-cc-jillyfish16.jpg

Muslims would also riot of the Temple were to be rebuilt. Like Christians Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah and will eventually return. And like Jews Muslims believe that the Temple will be rebuild by the Messiah. If anybody should attempt to rebuild the Temple before Jesus' return, there will be a war.

Muslims refer to Jerusalem as Al-Quds ("The Holy")* and to the Temple Mount as Masjid Al-Aqsa ("The Furthest Place of Worship")**. Muhammed believed that the Kaaba in Mecca was built by Adam and rededicated by Abraham and Yishmael and that Mount Moria in Jerusalem was the holy place for Abraham and his other son, Yitzhaq. Since Islam sees itself as a universal religion (like Christianity) both "Places of Worship", the nearest (Mecca) and the farthest (Jerusalem) are important as places where the prophets prayed. To rebuild the Temple now or in the foreseeable future would upset many.

Very interesting and I agree without doubt with your concluding statement. ...might even cause all out war?

I do believe that Jews have the right to rebuild it, because Jerusalem is the Jewish capital. But I also believe that Jews should follow Jewish law, which prohibits it. It should be noted that it is (believed to be) G-d's law that prohibits rebuilding the Temple, NOT Arab or Muslim feelings about it.

 Why, if Jewish law and God's law prohibits the rebuilding, would Jews have a "right" to rebuild it? 

Also, if there is Scripture, could you cite the texts where God's law prohibits rebuilding the Temple?   

on Dec 16, 2008

He also said he's coming back.  That hasn't happened yet either.

Indeed. And if he comes back and does the things the Messiah is supposed to do, he might still qualify.

 

 

on Dec 16, 2008

Who are the Christians who believe that Jesus will return for the purpose of literally rebuilding the Jerusalem Temple?

You have to understand that you are a weird Christian and quite different from all the Catholics I know (and I live in Ireland) and the other American Christians I have met (like KFC).

Most Christians (that is perhaps all of them but you, as you seem to have different beliefs from all of them) believe that Jesus was the Messiah and will return. From this follows that, if it is true, he will return and rebuild the Temple, as that is what was prophecied.

 

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