If colleges don't follow federal guidelines, they can't be accredited, and you can't legally spend your pell grant going there. No one is telling the kids how to run their lives, only the institutions that take federal money. By the way, if other activists get their way you won't be able to go to a religiously administrated institution and get government loans or grants.

Excuse me sir, but I fail to see what your reply has to do with mine. I very specifically said "run my life". Nowhere did I say anything at all to even remotely bring in a schools accreditation.

Then what did your post have to do with this issue? No one is running the student's life, they are telling the public schools what to do. I was just stating that schools have to tow the line to get the right to use Pell Grants as well.

Like you say, students can say what they like, right? How are you harmed by a kid having to put the words "under God" IN? Kids aren't harmed by having to opt-in on prayer.

Then what did your post have to do with this issue? No one is running the student's life, they are telling the public schools what to do. I was just stating that schools have to tow the line to get the right to use Pell Grants as well.

"My" post had everything to do with the topic at hand. Some one made the comment about feds should have a say in how a public school is run. I said they shouldn't and compared it to the feds telling "me" how to run "my" life because I got a pell grant. What's so hard to understand? The "only" thing the feds can do "if" I recieve a pell grant is tell me what "schools" I can or can not attend. I feel the same way about public schools. The feds should have very little to no say how the school is run. School standards are set by the "state" not the feds. The only thing the feds should have a say in is that "students" need to be able to compete at a certain level upon completion of a grade.

"the last poll or survey taken shows over 76% of americans have a belief in GOD." There's 300 million Americans. So 24% of Americans, roughly 72 MILLION people don't fit the definition of American set forth by the McCarthyist pledge.

This is from reply #36. Please note that MM said that 76% of americans believe in "God", not "god" which means 76% profess some sort of "christian" beliefs. That figure does not include the other religions of the world. The pledge of alligence does NOT define an "American".

"My" post had everything to do with the topic at hand. Some one made the comment about feds should have a say in how a public school is run. I said they shouldn't and compared it to the feds telling "me" how to run "my" life because I got a pell grant. What's so hard to understand?

If you want federal money you have to play by federal rules--that's just the way it is. Think of the Federal Highway Trust Fund (the money for roads) and how states had to change their speed limits and their drinking ages in order to continue to get the money.

If you want federal money you have to play by federal rules--that's just the way it is. Think of the Federal Highway Trust Fund (the money for roads) and how states had to change their speed limits and their drinking ages in order to continue to get the money.

Oh really? Then why are most "roads" now at 65mph? That is clearly against the federal mandate of 55 now ain't it? And the federal money bit was already addressed by me in my comment about pell grants and the feds telling me how to live my life. They should have "some" say in the schools, but a very limited one. Otherwise why have state governments in the first place which set the standards for their own public schools?

Oh really? Then why are most "roads" now at 65mph? That is clearly against the federal mandate of 55 now ain't it? And the federal money bit was already addressed by me in my comment about pell grants and the feds telling me how to live my life. They should have "some" say in the schools, but a very limited one. Otherwise why have state governments in the first place which set the standards for their own public schools?

Do you ever respond to a comment without getting worked up in a tizzy? Can you disagree with someone without using the neenar-neenar-neenar attitude? The "oh really"s and the "you're wrong"s are a bit tiring. We disagree--we are each entitled to hold our opinions and debate them the best we can. You aren't changing my mind by telling me how "wrong" I am.

There are always restrictions on the use of federal money. The catch is, if you don't want to play by the government's rules, you don't have to take their money. Baker already addressed your Pell Grant question--the government says you can use their money, but only if you attend certain institutions. Try using a Pell Grant at your local bartending college--I bet it won't work.

Oh really? Then why are most "roads" now at 65mph? That is clearly against the federal mandate of 55 now ain't it?

Grey was only using 55MPH federal requirement during the 70-80s as an example of how federal money should be used and with extra requirements. That requirement was changed in the 90s, by the fed not the States.

If you are wishing for the Federal Government not to have any strings attached then I would guess you would have no problem just handing over billions of dollars of disaster relief to the Louisiana Governor with no questions ask too.

Why, when I swear my allegiance to my country, to I have to evoke God?

You don't....a permission slip sent hom to the parents before classes begin should be sufficient. Ask them if they mind their children being taught the Pledge as it stands. If they do, then they can teach their kid to say it as they would...skip over the "God" part if you want to teach it that way.
As to perhaps feeling peer pressure: do you really think a roomful of 5-year-olds is going to notice if one or two of them skips over 2 words? I doubt it.

Besides....just because you ay say it doesn't mean you have to completely believe in it. That's life.

Another point, and I remember mentioning this before, months back on another post:

When I was a kid, we were taught the Pledge by rote; we learned it word for word....and no one ever told us what it meant.
I'd like to see it gone over, word for word and explained to the kids as they learn it. A Pledge ofloyalty means nothing if you don't understand it, after all.
I mean, it wasn't until I was in Jr. High that I was mature enough to really listen to, and acually understand, a lot of the concepts mentioned. It should be expained in the very beginning.

after some thought I can see where going back to the original pledge might not be a bad thing.

I still do not like a small percentage dictating to me what to think.

I guess any form of government, even democracy has its flaws and loopholes.

As to perhaps feeling peer pressure: do you really think a roomful of 5-year-olds is going to notice if one or two of them skips over 2 words? I doubt it.

I don't. From grade school all the way up through high school, children look for ways to fit in. An easy way to fit in is to find a reason why the person next to you does not fit in.

Also, even if a child starts leaving the words out at 5 and doesn't get noticed until they are 12, they will still get noticed for doing what others are not. And as long as the official version has the words, the child that omits the two words will be seen as different and less. And at an age when you don't understand the entire pledge, it's easy to equate not saying the entire pledge with not pledging for real.

Imagine if a child went home and told his parents that the boy/girl next to him/her left the words out. And now imagine that the family is a deeply religious Christian family that has no warm feelings for athiests. I know, this is a stretch, right? I mean all Christians love their neighbors, right? Regardless of their religious affiliations or lack thereof. But bear with me for just a moment and go on a ride with your imagination. Just suppose, that under the most unlikely of circumstances, this religious family actually responds to their child's report with something along the lines of "Well, I don't want you to be friends with that heathen". I know, this is something that would probably only happen in the Twilight Zone and all, but this is my imagination train, so please ride it out to the final station. What happens when that child goes back to school and tells all the other kids (who also live in this kooky dimension and have similar mind sets about non-Christians) about what his/her parents told them.

Remember, we are all adults here and can freely express ourselves on topics. I'd say we can mostly survive the hardships those opinions bring us. Especially on the internet where we are mostly faceless anyways. Children packed into a public school classroom are a different thing, though. We should try to remember that. The social order and pecking status of children is very different than what we deal with everyday and we shouldn't trivialize what they go through because it is so different from the hardships we encounter every day.

we shouldn't trivialize what they go through because it is so different from the hardships we encounter every day.

I'm not trivializing anything....I remember well what it was like to be a kid. Not easy.
This would all still feed in to what I said about explaiing it all at the beginning; it could be made plain that, under our way of government, it was a personal choice as to whether or not to say those words. So, if ayone did not say them, that was okay, too.
It could be used as a tool to help kids better understand our rights as Americans, and to appreciate the the system we have. I can't see anything wrong with that.

after some thought I can see where going back to the original pledge might not be a bad thing.I still do not like a small percentage dictating to me what to think.I guess any form of government, even democracy has its flaws and loopholes.

Just to build on this a little, I've got another question to add. Let's say we as a country do decide to omit the two words from the official version. Don't you think that this would give parents a chance to explore their spirituality with their children a little more? I mean, in a perfect (and even an ideal or just nice ) world, parents would explain the reason the words are not there officially but encourage their children to add them back in on their own, making sure that they understood, not only the pledge, but also the acknowledgement of their beliefs. And, really, that's where spirituality needs to begin - in the home with the family.

We're so worried about the government telling us what to do. Isn't it obvious that by leaving the two words in the government is telling people what to say? How to pledge? I mean, just giving permission to omit the words is not enough. Now that person is not reciting the official pledge. But, if we were to omit the words from the official pledge, it loses any divisiveness that it had. And the government can't tell you that you can't add them back in on your own.

This would all still feed in to what I said about explaiing it all at the beginning; it could be made plain that, under our way of government, it was a personal choice as to whether or not to say those words. So, if ayone did not say them, that was okay, too. It could be used as a tool to help kids better understand our rights as Americans, and to appreciate the the system we have. I can't see anything wrong with that.

In order for it to be a personal choice, the words should come out of the official version and added in at your discretion. Not the other way around. As it stands, if you omit the words, you are not reciting the official pledge.

Besides....just because you ay say it doesn't mean you have to completely believe in it. That's life.

If that's life, it's a sad, sad life and I want nothing to do with living that life. And it's not American life. We say what we mean. We do what we say.

I think it is hypocrisy and we shouldn't be teaching our children that it's OK.

Chiprj:

There aren't enough insightfuls--for your commments here and on other similar threads.

There aren't enough insightfuls--for your commments here and on other similar threads.

I knew my big bold peer pressure line would score!!! HAHA! Thanks. And back at you, too.