You show your ignorance in your remarks. I am African-American. I have been to Africa multiple times. I live in a neighborhood that is not violent (being in a violent neighborhood does not mean that you know something about African-American culture, it simply means you probably have lower property values). I would like for an intelligent conservative to respond and not trailer trash with an internet connection.

You are no more african american than I am. You also are what you sow, trailer trash. You really are clueless and stupid.

#58 by cityguy Wednesday, June 08, 2005

You show your ignorance in your remarks. I am African-American. I have been to Africa multiple times. I live in a neighborhood that is not violent (being in a violent neighborhood does not mean that you know something about African-American culture, it simply means you probably have lower property values). I would like for an intelligent conservative to respond and not trailer trash with an internet connection. In this case you dont know what the hell you are talking about. If I was you, I would delete this post before you get your head handed to you on a platter. If you think that this is not true you should kindly try removing your head from David Dukes ass and start looking around.

first off saying you been to africa means nothing, all it means is one black person went, so stop the usual talking head points, by citing one example and try to twist it into a universal truth.

I am 58 years old and so far have had to call blacks, negroes, black men and women, people of color, and now african american, well from now on my proper title should be, turkish american that happens to be a sephardic jew with spanish bloodlines dating back to the spanish inquesition, see3 how ridiculous this is, you are american and the political correwct bullshit of DIVIDING americans into what they desended from is just another way to keep us apart.

I would try to behave better to whip on my blog, I happen to be very fond of her and will have to send you to your room if you insist on name calling .

For example, where were you on the Jesus/weeny debate? Did a single liberal (other than Tex, I think) jump in and say..."I have no issue with this group handing out bible tracts with free weenies?"

I think some of us liberals have simply gotten tired of arguing in circles and being made out to be evil/stupid/crazy(or maybe all three)--or maybe that is just me. I have refrained from commenting on most political articles simply because I find myself banging my head against a wall while people are filling my mouth with words I didn't utter/type. So, that is why this liberal was quiet.

That said--I don't think that the group should have been handing out religious tracts in a school parking lot. Around the corner from the school, great. In the local park, perfect. But when the principal announces it and its on school grounds, I feel like that might be crossing the line between church and state a little (of course, it was in Canada, and I haven't a notion what their laws are, so maybe it was all on the up-and-up).

That said, I, like many of my fellow liberal New Englanders, am most definitely a Christian. I don't think that promoting the separation of church and state makes me any less Christian, and it certainly does not make me a "christianity hater." The case that is brought up again and again is the ACLU case in LA--my opinion--if you are removing the christians symbols you need to remove the pagan symbols--I personally don't have a problem with either symbol, but if people do, they should both be removed.

IMO, the people that feel the need to preach on the streets and wrap themselves in bible verses are trying too hard--they come off as not being sincere--more into the idea that people are seeing them spreading the Word than actually living the Word.

I firmly believe religion and the government should be separate. But, I also think that we need to be more tolerant of others beliefs than we currently are (myself included--I will fully admit to laughing at the t-shirt I saw that said, "so many right-wing christians, so few lions"--however, I did refrain from purchasing it, which positioned me one step closer to tolerance!)

IMO, the people that feel the need to preach on the streets and wrap themselves in bible verses are trying too hard--they come off as not being sincere--more into the idea that people are seeing them spreading the Word than actually living the Word.

agreed completely.

please do not continue to bang head on walls, trust me the walls will not break but your head might.

I would try to behave better to whip on my blog, I happen to be very fond of her and will have to send you to your room if you insist on name calling .

Agreed. LW, please forgive me for the name-calling. I retract the racist remarks I made at you. However, I am African-American. It's not a way to divide people, although I can see where you may see it that way. The term 'black' has never carried anything positive with it which is why the descendants of slaves in this country prefer not to be called that. It's a respect issue, that's all. Sorry I went off. It's hard when I grew up in an African-American community for someone to tell me what that community is like.

I regret that I did resort to name-calling. But the issues that I spoke of were never really addressed. Do most conservatives believe that there is not an African-American middle class community? That we don't have college education or passports? Surely we all know better than that, right? BTW, I didn't go to Africa alone but with 366 other African-American college students doing relief work for AIDS. I go again in two weeks.

Bottom line that I was trying to make from the beginning is that I come from a community that would labeled liberal but very tolerant to Christianity. More in the middle than any of the extremes.

#63 by cityguy Wednesday, June 08, 2005

I will hope that some conservative member that come here will adress your questions, I do not feel qualified as I am non white, jewish and moderate in my politics.

thank you for retracting what you said about whip. you have the distinct honor of being the very first democrat to apoligize or say they were wrong. I applaud and commend you.

Apology accepted.

Thanks. That actually means alot.

Obviously you've lived in largely black middle class neighborhoods, so your perception is different. I do know they exist, and that not all blacks are ghetto thugs, I really do.

Actually, I grew in Gary, IN. I went to Indiana University on a scholarship that was based on my skin and not my grades (as did many of my college friends). I did much better in college than I did in public high schools (as did many of friends as well). I have only lived in a African-American middle class one year of my life, this one. I turned down many gainful employment opportunites to give back to my community in not for profit work. I met my wife in inner-city Chicago, we married in inner-city Detroit.

It may be sad, but it is true that the blacks I interact with on a daily basis are not wearing suits and ties, they don't hold jobs, they don't have passports, and they don't travel to Africa to do charity work. They hang around on street corners, in front of area stores, and cruise the 'hood in cars equipped with speakers that would curl your hair. They carry guns, and use them often. They have multiple children by multiple "baby-daddies" and fence their food stamps for crack. They discard their used needles in the alleys and fencelawns where children play. They raise pit-bulls for fighting. They are loud and obnoxious and dirty and rude and openly hostile to my lone white face.

In my experience, growing up in Gary, living in Chicago, for every person you meet that fits this description, there are five to ten that defy it.

{quote]I eventually had an epiphany about 15 years ago, turned my back on that hate, and have spent the rest of my life putting distance between me and the pepetrators of that hate...whites and blacks alike.

Perhaps that gives you some insight as to why I feel so passionately about these things. If i were as hateful as you claimed, wouldn't I be renting some ramshackle trailer out in Hickville instead of living in the inner city?

I commend you for that

If you have such pride in your race, why not head down to South Richmond the next time you're feeling charitable, and see if you can do some good here? Your fellow Americans could use the assistance as much as any African could.

Let's stop making assumptions about each other. They are quite offensive. I spend 9 months of a year in the inner-city. I help college students see how they can give back to the community. I spend 4-6 weeks overseas showing them how they can impact the world. Just so you do know, I also work with people from South Richmond and other parts Virginia, especailly Hampton Roads.

That being said, I commend you on you charity work, but 2 trips to Africa does not make you African. I grew up in West Germany, spending 8 years there, and one of my grandparents was a first generation immigrant from Germany. Does that make me a German?

I have been there more than twice. You say there is nothing African about me and that I couldn't survive there. Yet you step around the issue of simply asking for respect, and not being called black. We don't call mixed childrem 'gray' do we? I am simply asking for respect.

#65 by little_whip Thursday, June 09, 2005

#66 by cityguy Thursday, June 09, 2005

now thats what I call civil discoure and respectful behavior.

kudos to the two of you.

stand on my original point. Unless you yourself were born in Africa, or have a parent that was, there is nothing "African" about you other than the fact that some of your distant anscestors came from there.

If you use this logic, there is nothing black about me either (except my hair and my most comfortable shoes). My ancestry is from Africa (recent ancestry, not going back to the begining of man). True, some African-Americans will refer to themselves as Black. But there are some who want to use the Black in a derogatory way. The word was never meant in a positive. No African are truly black. For some European settlers in Africa it was meant to describe Africans as pagan.

And what's the problem if the rules change? Laws are changed or amended to better society. Is this such a big deal to ask to be respected in manor? Or do you simply feel no need to respect an African-American? That's all I am asking for.

Still, I remain, and I look for the good in anyone I meet, regardless of their skin tone.

You have yet to show that here. The perseption you would have us believe the that there are only poor, dirty, violent people in South Richmond. You say you know them, but have you truly gotten to know them? If so, would they be honored by the words you say about them here in private?

And while I cant speak for your jungle skills, I know that not a single one of the blacks I know would last a week in a desert or jungle setting, hell, they wouldnt even survive in an urban African setting, whatever would they do without their section 8 housing and food stamps?

You say you are not racist anymore but this statement is dripping with racism. My jungle skills? There are more than jungles in Africa. It's too bad that you choose to still hurl insults.

Call yourself anything you like, but until you show me some respect by referring to whites as Northern-Euro-Americans, I'll continue to use the terms I myself am comfortable with

I don't think I have ever used 'white' anywhere in this discussion. I do use the term European-American (thanks for correcting me though, I will now say North European-Americans).

Look, I really wanted to connect with conservatives about issues that are important to African-Americans. I will the first to admit that the Democratic party is far from perfect. But right now it's the lesser of two evils. I know that LW can't speak for all conservatives, but if these comments are any indication of what conservatives are truly like behind closed doors, then the Democratics will continue to be the lesser of those two evils.

That pretty much sums it up, wanna come visit?

If you are serious, I will. It's part of my job. Otherwise, I find that really hard to believe and incredibly racist. You really try to help your fellow American neighbors and not bash them here.

What about black Americans whose ancestors hail from places other than Africa, like Haiti, Jamaica, or Australia? Must I query each dark-skinned person I meet to ask them if their ancestors are indeed from Africa or perhaps somewhere else so I know how to describe them if the need arises? Does Africa has some sort of monopoly on dark skin? Do you presume to speak for all of them?

Would you object to them being called Haitian-American. Oh, and let's not forget, that most of them have ancestory from Africa as well. (Of course not the Aboriginals from Australia. I have never said that I am not an American. I am very much an American. Again, I am only asking for respect in not being called Black. If you want to call me an American, that's fine.

My Husband recently immigrated from England, and when He takes His citizenship test in 2008, He will NOT be referring to Himself as a British-American. Just an American. If that's good enough for Him, why isn't it good enough for YOU?

And I am not trying to speak for anyone else, so don't ask that your husband speaks for me.


I am trying to ask serious questions and I am only getting insults. Please, if you don't have anything good to say about African-Americans please try not to respond.

Every single black person I know, which is quite a few, refer to themselves as black. Many of them openly object to the African-American label as they themselves say they are NOT African. These are middle class working people. Good family people, who I am happy to call my friends. They also refer to me as white (if it even comes up) even though I have as much Apache blood in me as Irish. I don't have a problem with it either. I look more or less like the average white person.

Personally I think PEOPLE need to get past and get over the whole labels issue and focus on more important things. I think of myself as a person. A human being. Period. I think of other people, friends, neighbors, strangers, as people. Human beings. Why this need to stick labels on everyone?

If you feel that a label of one sort or another garners you respect, you have far bigger issues to deal with in yourself. Respect in not about labels, it's about how people treat you and interact with you. My friends, of all races, treat me with respect and jovial kindness, and I treat them in a like manner. Why? Because we don't waste time worrying about labels, race, or any of the other total wastes of energy and instead deal with each other as PEOPLE.

Oh, and yes, I consider myself to be more conservative than not. Not that it really matters. Come to think of it, so are most (not all) of my friends.

Every single black person I know, which is quite a few, refer to themselves as black. Many of them openly object to the African-American label as they themselves say they are NOT African. These are middle class working people. Good family people, who I am happy to call my friends. They also refer to me as white (if it even comes up) even though I have as much Apache blood in me as Irish. I don't have a problem with it either. I look more or less like the average white person.

I've never disputed that and I in fact agreed with it. But times do change and there is a generation that has a different preference when interacting with people outside of his/her culture. It's not because they are African, but because of the choice to identify with a lost heritage. We know that some of ancestors come from Africa, but we will never know where. Their culture lives among us as Americans, and even more so as African-Americans. You can see it in our food, in our celebration, in our music. But it is very much so American, not African. It is influenced by our ancestors from Africa, which is where most dark skinned people can trace their heritage to. It's a choice to not forget that history. That's all I meant by respect.

Believe or not, this is the first time I have ever had this conversation. I don't spend a great deal of time thinking or talking about this. Most of the Caucasians I know (which is quite a few) refer to us as African-Americans. When I meet someone for the first time that refers to me as Black, it does alarm me at first until I get to know that person. In my history, when someone who isn't African-American, it was usually followed by the n-word. When I hear people speak of African-Americans as 'they' or 'them' or 'you people' or 'those people', it is usually coming from someone with hate in their background.

If you feel that a label of one sort or another garners you respect, you have far bigger issues to deal with in yourself. Respect in not about labels, it's about how people treat you and interact with you.

Does that help you understand where I am coming from now? That's what I mean by respect.


I would actually like to drop the African-American thing for other issues. Some of the questions I asked before were do a great deal of conservatives think this way about the African-American community? It was not the 'label' thing that I was refering to that sounded racist. It's the fact that in your community, you say that everyone is all bad. There is nothing good in you community. LW, you say that's what you see, but have you stopped to talk with anyone so that they are heard. It's really easy to talk down about them, it's a lot harder to help them. Let's go beyond a the name of the community and talk about the community. I confess, I went down a long rabbit trail. But let's talk about how conservatives see the problem and would like to address it.

I don't remeber how this topic got from liberals to blacks...but its kinda funny...

It's a choice to not forget that history.

It would truly be a shame for anyone to forget their history as all peoples have a rich heritage of history to draw upon.

do a great deal of conservatives think this way about the African-American community? It was not the 'label' thing that I was refering to that sounded racist. It's the fact that in your community, you say that everyone is all bad.

I'll respond to this as someone who is somewhat conservative, although it wasn't really directed to me, but LW. I am not answering for her, as she is capable of doing so herself, but I am fairly conservative.

Firstly, I don't view or think about the "African-American Community" at all. I view and think about the community in which I live. It's a community made up of people of many races and backgrounds, and quite a few people from other countries. From what I can observe, we have no "African-American" communities here. We have no "Caucasian Community" here. We have no "Mexican American" community here. We have many different people all living and working in a community of people.

As long as people insist on setting themselves apart from the whole as a "XXXXXXX Community" they do just that. They set themselves apart, as if they somehow don't belong to the community as a whole. I think it's really sad that some people would wish to do this to themselves.

We have a mixture of people here with regard to incomes,from the extremely wealthy to the very poor. From the well educated to the uneducated. From the fluent English speakers, to people who speak little or no English at all (some of use speak "southern" LOL). We also have our crime problems like any other place.

I don't make nor accept excuses for criminal behavior. There are jobs to be had here for ANYONE willing to work. I have no tolerance for the theives, the drug dealers, or the trouble makers regardless of their race or background. There simply is no acceptable excuse for it and the people who try to make excuses for it only serve to add to the problem.

Our community is far from perfect, but work is plentiful, we have a decent climate here (Florida), and most of us generally get along pretty well. The spot where I live is mostly white people, but 1 block over is mostly black people. I like to ride my bicycle whenever I can. I feel perfectly comfortable riding through the neighborhood, often waving to the folks I pass. Some I know, some I don't but we are all part of one community. We are neighbors.

As far as solving some of the problems of poverty and crime, it's called getting a job. Ok, being realistic, jobs may not be as readily available in some places, I don't know. I can only speak to where I live. There is no shortage of jobs. If someone chooses to deal drugs or steal, they are CHOOSING to do so. They are certainly not forced. There are employers here begging people to come to work. There is no excuse.

Oh and by the way, I live in a trailer, so I guess that makes me "trailer trash with an internet connection". So I'm sure my views and experiences don't matter much.

Oh and by the way, I live in a trailer, so I guess that makes me "trailer trash with an internet connection". So I'm sure my views and experiences don't matter much

--Not true, your one of the people i like hearing thoughts on specific topics from...