first of all, it seems a bit over the top to assume that all blacks refuse to forgive. i live in boston, and you should see how disgusting these white guys get over their sports teams - and yet, true-heart that i am, and white, i am still a die-hard packers fan. do you hear me, favre? nothing you can do will shake my faith!

second, it stands to reason that some blacks have had a worse go at american life than other blacks since honest abe restored a semblance of order to our proud nation. trust is a little thin on both sides of the wall. but it so happens that some blacks and some whites have journeyed into the middle-ground war zone.

mostly, though, i think it's hard to overcome a grudge. especially a good one. i can't stand the eagles after what they did to the packers on 4th and 26 in the playoffs all those years ago. and i nurse that grudge even though i KNOW football doesn't mean more than a tinker's curse. one-fifty years doesn't seem that long to me when you think of where the black community gets their grudge. things will have to change a lot before the grudge goes away for good.

i mean, really! i just read a post equating the short-sighted brutal racism of the KKK to the angry racism of Trinity United! things do change. but very, very s-l-o-w-l-y. right, little whip?

taboo

Cityguy, good response! 

 

Taboo, I hear ya about the equating what the KKK did and what is going on now, the grudge that is seemingly on a never-ending long rope, are two different things!  In that, the physical abuse and atrociousness that went on for years, even after slavery, well, how is that comparable especially since the hate goes on still, and now on both sides!  But as I've said, two wrongs don't make a right.  And while one keeps meteing out the hatred, the other will continue to feel persecuted!

 

While many of those in the congregation didn't go through slavery, I didn't either, there are still things happening today that continues to feed the hate (and yes, on both sides).  I could sit and list some of them, but I won't bother. 

 

So many of us like to think that we are not racist, but we all have something in us that we dislike about someone of another race, we don't hide it when we're with friends, we don't hide it when we're at home, so tell me, when and where will it end?  It's always going to be there!  It has to start with one of us, and only then will the difference be felt!  Talking about it does nothing, action will!  But for many of us, we're too scared to go out on a limb because we don't know how we will be perceived by our neighbors, even worse, our friends and family!

 

The constant reminder of blacks having receive education for free, and living off the system, the continuous pervasiveness of this type of talk is the very reason why there won't be any changes.  Many years ago, after slavery, when the government realise what they did to the very people who were their citizens - slavery, they did the only thing they could do to make amends! 

Unfortunately, what they did, and how they did it, was just a bandaid that cannot cover the gaping wound that still exists!  If it was handled in a way, with much thought and vision (into what the future might be - we're all living it!) instead of a quick fix to make themselves feel better and give a big pat on the back, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in today!

 

Blacks, some blacks, wouldn't feel the entitlement, and wouldn't be so dependent on the very system that made their grandmothers that way, and while some might have the gumption to crawl out of it, so many don't have that stamina or goal, and so they sit and they wallow, and they grow resentful, even at their very own who try to shine and seek better for themselves!  Who is to blame?  I don't know?  But no "whilte people" no, all blacks do not hate you , and all blacks do not think the same way.  This is just something that is going to have to continue to play itself out, and somehow I think it is a good thing, because we do need to have these discussions. We do need to wake up and get over ourselves, all of us, and not be so damn kittish and pc about what we talk about in order to get this out of the way!  Because only then will we make progress!

 

 

 

 

 

Not the ones I've dated.

Ah, you poor soul!

I REALLY know how you feel - Raider fan in Deadskin land!

Its called the "Black Card" I don't think black people even care about their ancestors being slaves. They are just milking the situation to get more freebies in life.

the word "entitlement" is a loaded term . . .



who feels entitled, a black person who demands the right to an education or the white person who demands the right to an education?

the answer is both, of course. the black guy FEELS entitled to those reparations that are due; without them, he cannot legitimately PURSUE life and liberty. meanwhile, the white guy, having committed no crime in his lifetime, FEELS he cannot legitimately PURSUE life and liberty while having to pay reparations for the crimes committed by others.

throughout, the debate over "politically correct" continues. some say, "what is the point of not telling it like it is?" others say, "that's not polite." but the real PC battle isn't about truth or politeness. it's about language, and the argument for truth.

everyone has a sense of entitlement. we all think what we see is the truth. PC is a battle for our own mythologies, not for the "way things are."



within one system of mythology, this makes sense; in another, there is an unbalanced equation because "blacks living off the system" is code for "blacks created by the system." you can say "the past is past, now is now, so fk you" if you want; but the problem remains. entitled to the PURSUIT requires an active relation to the means of production; but in the united states, at least, slavery was the MODE of production and black people were the cattle.

black people were built into our system in the same way oil is built into our system now. we can't just say, okay black folks, you can leave your harnesses at the door - go get in line with everyone else. we just create messy problems that way, don't we? white people resent the fact that we're standing in line with cattle ("they're taking all our jobs, they are!") and black people have to relearn who they are.

that's the problem with your concept of black entitlement. it means, they feel entitled to what white people in the USA have always felt entitled: the pursuit. but they don't have the necessary identity - the active relation to the means of production.

taboo

LW,



well, i agree with you. but there isn't a real "melting pot" experience in the USA anymore - if there ever was one. within larger communities, smaller communities will form around a sense of common identity, and then they will try to protect themselves. am i happy about the existence of an angry black racist church community? no. but i would say that, antagonistic as trinity united is toward me, their method of "protecting" themselves is considerably more civil and tolerant than the KKK's method of "protecting" themselves - and the source of trinity united's antagonism seems more justified as well.

taboo

Tell that to Walter E. Williams, L. Douglas Wilder, Thomas Sowell, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Clarence Thomas, Michael Steele, etc.

Dont expect to get an answer too fast though. They are too busy PURSUING life, liberty, happiness, etc.

rice was brought up "in a middle-class, black community called Titusville, where education was a high priority for children who were expected to succeed regardless of any prejudices or boundaries."

thomas: "In 1964, the year the Civil Rights Act was enacted, Thomas' grandfather withdrew him from the all-black parochial high school he was attending and sent him to an all-white Catholic boarding school in Savannah, St. John Vianny Minor Seminary. Despite being confronted with racism, Thomas made excellent grades and played on the school's football team. Thomas' grandfather sent Clarence to Immaculate Conception Seminary in northwestern Missouri after his graduation from high school in 1967."



how one is raised has an effect on one's ability to pursue life and liberty. you named seven people, and they have all experienced high degrees of success. you could name seven people at the other end of the spectrum who would also like to pursue life and liberty as well, but they have very little chance of doing so.

but in any case, this isn't the point, is it? the question is about entitlement, and about the mythologies to which we subscribe. you write an article called "Do Blacks Really Hate all Whites?" and my response is to point out how your mythology is just as generalizing and subjective as the one pontificated by wright. your beliefs - yours and his - come from living lives filled with very different experiences. i would also argue that wright's mythology is probably very different from colin powell's. wouldn't you?

taboo

The difference is in the part of yoru statement I quoted. Those looking for a handout will look a long time, and whine a lot. Those who decide to do something, accomplish it - and they did not get favortism or "reparations" to get there.

You are right, it is attitude. But attitude is not going to be changed by any kind of entitlement. It is something you have or do not, and it has nothing to do with skin color or creed.

Hmmm...not sure where you have conversations.  Black people here (in the USA) talk about it all the time when anyone talks about going to Africa or HIV in Africa.  You have any proof that no one mentions it?

 

 

Bullshit! Crawl back in the backwards hole you came from.  It's not a card.  I can't be black when it's convienent and not black when it's hard.  And it can be hard.  I was walking with my infant son less than a month ago when I heard 'fuckin' nigger' hurled from a passing car.  Where was my 'black card' then? I would dismiss it if it were the only time it happened, but happens about once every other month.  If that's what someone feels like saying in the safety of their passing car, God only knows what things are like in other situations.

 

 

Taboo, you make really great points.

 

 

Therein lies your myth. The majority of people receiving gov't handouts are not black.  Yes, they make up a disproportionate amount but not the majority.  So are you also saying that white people or any other ethnicity doesn't whine about their circumstances?

Better re-read my statement. Pay close attention to this part:



I was not talking black or white, purple charteuse green or lavender. I was talking attitude. Those that have it, succeed. So if you (the royal you) are looking for a crutch, you will never go anywhere. If you are determined to succeed, you probably will, and at least you will be a lot closer to doing so than those who are sitting and whining.

 

The point there was that I don't have a 'get of out jail' race card.  Not that racism doesn't exist but that race, particularly being black, is not some sort of convience.

 

 

Sure, I definitely see your point.  Sorry I didn't say that before. But trying doesn't guarentee you getting any closer to being out of your circumstance.

Ironically, in my experience in inner-city non-profits that try to help the less fortunate, no one wants to be poor or on gov't assistance, at least for the most part.  No one wants to live in the projects.  The irony is that one's you probably call 'whiners' are the educated black people who look at the current situation and say it is in need of change.  They are not the same one's who are languishing at the bottom of our economic food chain.

The overall point, going to my first post, is that this spot in our economy has disproportionatly reserved for blacks and hispanics. While there is a huge degree of personal responsibility to be had, our current system does not make it any easier when you do take responsibility.  In my old position, I say it all the time.

BTW Sabrina, how are you?  You had surgery recently, right?

Lots of good stuff being said while I was gone, taboo really hit the nail on the head several times. I stated in a previous response that "I don't believe for one moment that all blacks hate all whites", my title is a question. What I saw at Trinity United was as awful as a skinhead rally or a Nazi rally the way the audience behaved.

Little whips point of how can we believe that Obama who seems to surround himself with race haters and claims ignorance of the whole deal is a little hard to believe. Obama seems to be a very smart and well educated man, aware of his surroundings, I find it impossible to believe he does not in some way have some racist leanings himself.

There are always assholes that are going to call blacks niggers for no reason, just like I was called kike and hymie and Jewboy for no reason other than I am Jewish. Come to think of it it was Jesse Jackson a Blackman that refered to Jews in New York City as Hymietown.. There will be race haters and race baiters till the end of my life time I believe the best we can hope for is to come to small general understandings between the few of us here, Black, White, Latino, Asian, whatever, that we are all not that different and treat one another with some respect and if we have disagreements let them be on issues, NOT RACE OR RELIGION!