That's a tough one Elie.

When I was a teenager I spent some time in a group home for girls.  I was there for being "abused" by my step monster, but most of the the other girls were there for exactly this kind of thing.  Of course they didn't do goth, but breaking away from the pack, descending into anti-social behavior.

The one thing this kid has going for him...he has parents who care.

The only thing I saw as a teen which actually helped the anti-social types was...removing them from the group of friends they associated with and placing them in a more "supervised" setting.  Basically forcing them to act in socially acceptable ways to earn basic privileges like snacks and talking on the phone, taking a walk etc.

Your friend may want to check into alternative educations (ie military schools, boot camps, private schools, etc) to get her son back on track.  If his father is heavily involved in his life (and is worth a crap) then that should go along way in helping.  Lots of family/father son activities like camping, fishing, etc.  Not giving the teen the option, but making him go.

Last, I'd suggest family/individual counseling.  The kid may just need an unbiased third party to vent too.

I wish your friend luck.

That's all I got.  Hope it helps.

thank you for the advice tova, especially when your plate is full.

Mark use to use me as a sounding board because he knows about my past and knows I don't judge that stuff, but suddenly I have become the enemy too. I cannot imagine him emailing a complete stranger, but I will bounce it off of him.

Reply By: little-whipPosted: Monday, October 01, 2007 You're too close, Elie. I don't know your friends, and have no preconcieved notions about them. That might make all the difference. Tell him we're magickians, real ones, and when he's ready to quit dressing the part, posing and prancing around in shocking costumes, and start living it, i'll be willing to spend some time with him.

I will ask shelly to show him this back and forth and wait and see what happens, I appreciate you being willing to help my sweet friend.

The only thing I can really say is that someone needs to open up a dialog with the kid(like LW seems to be wanting to do) and work out some of those feelings he's having. While it's not a panacea, it does start one down the road of recovery.

I was not "one of those teens" but I know a few of my friends were headed down that path and being the helpful and loyal friend that I am, I helped out. Like I said, it doesn't cure anything...but it's a good place to start and you can move on to professional counseling if the situation calls for it.

The best advice I can give to the ordinary person is to be a friend and ask someone what's bothering them if you notice something is amiss. Listening to people's problems can save some lives.

~Zoo

I gave this a shot zoo, but was rejected as being " someone to old to understand" sunndenly I went from being his life long older friend to an enemy. I do not know when this happened but it did, he was totally not interested in talking things out with me, at all!

*psh* Only a young, ignorant person would say that.

If it's one thing most old folks have it's wisdom.

Lots of teenagers think that their world is some kind of enigma. Most of the time, people are suprisingly simple...though sometimes there are a few curveballs...or should I say oddballs?

Cracking a person's shell is the hard part...you have to be persistent, but not annoying. It's a weird little dance.

Hopefully someone can get him to open up...

~Zoo

Reply By: Zoologist03Posted: Monday, October 01, 2007 " someone to old to understand" *psh* Only a young, ignorant person would say that. If it's one thing most old folks have it's wisdom.

I showed him this to show I am concerned about him, he exploded and said " why am I telling the world about his personal life" hows that for a positive response?

Reply By: little-whipPosted: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 Hopefully someone can get him to open up... I'll crack him like a nut, heheh.

From the reaction I got about this whip, I do not think he is remotely interested.

*sigh* I'm not surprised. Although I could almost guarantee he has a Livejournal or something spouting off his rage at the world. Some people just don't respond well to help for some reason...at least not until things get really bad.

Teenagers...hell, I'm still one and they piss me off.

~Zoo

As a mom who has been and is going through my own teen angst, I feel solidarity with your friend. Here you are, (generalizing a bit) a mom, dad, have your child, love them, take care of them, try to give them what you can, give them some space so they become an individual, shadow them at times because they need guidance, the child is well-behaved, polite, seemingly happy, growing into his/her own, then suddenly, things change, personality changes, all communication becomes somehow mixed up, or there's none at all...and then the parent becomes the enemy, the one being looked at as wanting to hurt them, trying to stop them from living their lives, you don't know what they are going through they might yell....us parents are left perplexed and wondering what the fuck did I do wrong?

This happens in many homes, everyday. It's a horrible situation! While my daughter, thank heavens, didn't go the route of being involved in a gang or group, that changed her, although if you asked my husband, in a way she did, when she join that step dancing team at her high school, mixing up with too many of those black americans with their warped views she did change....an arguement we have dragged through the earth and beyond....she still did change in her way of thinking, her goals, that she said she still does have, she became almost a stranger!

I know she wanted to be independent, and I'm proud of her for feeling that way, but not in the manner she did it! Where this young man is concerned Elie, from the amount of people, parents I've dealt with, shows I've watched, articles and books I've read...did something happened to him to make him feel disenfranchised or disenhearted? Was there a time that his mom can remember that he experienced anything that could have changed his outlook on life?

I know he's non-communicative right now, but it sounds to me that something happend to him. While I'm not sure what it could be, I am hinting that maybe someone abused him in some way, perhaps not sexually but mentally, I don't know, I'm probably grasping at straws. But having experienced a little bit of change myself when someone tried to abuse me when I was younger, and having been around children in life, talking to them etc.... drastic changes usually happen when something major goes down. I do hope somehow that he could really sit and talk with his mom, especially if they had a great relationship before. What I might suggest if I may is that she gets him alone, ask him to hear her out, tells him how much she loves him, and that she is there for him, she won't judge, she will just listen to anything he has to say abouthow he's feeling. And if he wants to talk, and if she can help, offer some advice...she's there for him. And she as to do this in a manner totally non-combative, totally on his turf, and letting him feel at ease. She also could suggest to him to write her a letter. Even if she has tried to reach out to him before and he shuts her out, tell her to try one more time...I'll be praying for them.

Reply By: little-whipPosted: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 His loss, then.

He is lost would be a better term.

Reply By: Zoologist03Posted: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 " why am I telling the world about his personal life" hows that for a positive response? *sigh* I'm not surprised. Although I could almost guarantee he has a Livejournal or something spouting off his rage at the world. Some people just don't respond well to help for some reason...at least not until things get really bad. Teenagers...hell, I'm still one and they piss me off.

What gets me is his home has two loving parents, he has guidelines to live by, consequences if he breaks them, he WAS AN B student now a D student. He gets most of the bells and whistles that kids want these days.

Reply By: foreverserenityPosted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007

tell her to try one more time...I'll be praying for them.

I have told her to keep trying no matter what and right now prayers are the best that can be asked for.

What gets me is his home has two loving parents, he has guidelines to live by, consequences if he breaks them, he WAS AN B student now a D student. He gets most of the bells and whistles that kids want these days.

Oh, well now he's just being an asshole.

~Zoo