ohhhh.....quite profound!

KFC,  

Some of the Apostles and certainly the earlly Christians were forced to worship in the Catacombs which were adorned with many frescoes of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the Saints. These were/are not graven images. Can you honestly accuse these Christians of idolatry, when we know they died by the thousands in protest of it and wrote treatise after treatise condemning it?

Read God's First and Second Commandment which refer to images again and ask the Holy Spirit for some help in understanding it.

"Thou shalt not make to thyself any graven images of anything in the heaven above, or in the earth beneath." Thou shalt not bow down to them and worship them".  What this says to me is God forbids us to make images in order to adore or worship them.

Yet, in 25:18, God ordered the Jews to make images of angels. So, KFC, when the Jews made angels they were making images of the things in the heaven above, right? What? God didn't know what His own law was? There weren't to adore or worship them and Catholics get it and don't.

Are we violating God's law by making images of things on the earth beneath? How about the statue of Liberty, statues in town parks or squares, photos (images) of our loved ones? Of course not. We are in agreement that if we adore these we are in violation of the commandment and committing idolatry.  

So, here we see God's Commandment forbids idolatry which is the willful worship or adoration of idols or graven images, not the making or proper use of images which is what a statue is.

Yes, there are statues, icons or pictures, usually ornate art work of the Blessed Mother, the Saints, and a Crucifix in Catholic Churches.  And yes, Catholics kneel at prayer in front of these images. But if you conclude we are worshipping the statues or praying to them, then that is not the fault of the Catholics. It's your own fault in so far as you've judged us according to your own preconceived ideas.   

then why is all other Christian religions have a Cross with no Image of Christ on it? Just a cross with no graven Image to bow before?

lula posts:

MM POSTS:

I adamantly disagree that the Crucifix is a "graven image".

First, "all other Christian religions" is Protestantism and Protestantism is nothing other than a revolt from the Catholic Chruch. The only thing Protestants have in common is their rejection of Sacred Tradition, the 7 Sacraments, the Holy Mass and most, not all, of the Church's doctrines.    

To understand why Protestants reject having a Crucifix in their Churches, we must first understand the reason why Catholics do have the Crucifix on every Church altar.

The Catholic teaching on the Sacrifice of the Mass is spelled out by St. Paul's teaching to the Corinthians. Here v. 23, St.Paul is teaching the faith by handing down Sacred Tradition.

23 "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, 24 And giving thanks, broke, and said, "Take ye, and eat, This is My Body, which shall be delivered for you: do this for the commemoration of Me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after He had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in My Blood, this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of Me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until He come." 1Cor. 11:23-26,

V. 26 sums it up...St. Paul is saying the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass constantly commemorates the Sacrifice on the Cross, until the end of the world.  The Crucifix images the Passion and Death of Our Lord...and that's why Catholics have it.  Catholics  reverence  the Cross becasue Jesus Christ whom we adore died upon it for our eternal salvation.  He died for all so we might have salvation. The CC and Catholic life is about one thing....our eternal salvation which is only through Christ shedding His blood.

KFC commented that we should pray through faith and I agree. Of faith, St.Paul tells the Romans "..that we are being justified through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God had proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in His blood, to the showing of his justice for the remission of former sins."  

When I read, "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" and "through faith in His blood", I think immediately of Christ on the Cross, not an empty one. I also think of Almighty God because St.Paul teaches that God brings about the redemption of sinners in and through Christ whom He put forward as an expiation....which was made by Jesus' sacrifice of His life. The point is that what Jesus achieves by laying down His life is the work of God Himself. God took the first step without waiting for men to bring him the required expiatory offering. God Himself brings about expiation and thereby redemption from sins.  

The Church, through St.Peter and the Apostles, and then their appointed successors, has been teaching Christ's Birth, Death and Resurrection for 1500 years before Protestantism rejected and does not believe what all of Christendom believed. They aren't doing what St. Paul teaches...they can't....they reject the Sacrifice of the Mass, the doctrine of the Real Presence St.John 6,and  the separate, sacrificial priesthood in the order of Melchidesech.

Don't get me wrong....no doubt that many Protestants go to Jesus prayerfully. Catholics go directly to Jesus through prayer and prayerfully participating in the HOly Sacrifice of the Mass, the worship that Jesus taught and told us to do. It is a continuation, in an unbloody manner, of the bloody sacrifice Christ made on Mount Calvary. Catholics are more intimate and loving with Jesus through partaking of His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in Holy Communion. Our bodies become tabernacles of Jesus Christ, as well as temples of the Holy Ghost.

Hello All, I am back from my Refuge in the mountains. I see we are still at it.  What I do not understand is how Christians can possible not think that worshiping Jesus is not blasphemy against God. Nor can I undetstand how making a graven image of the man-god isn't creating an idol.  On the other hand, its not mine to understand. So, bow, genuflect, and cross yourselves all you want:  I leave it to the Holy One to determine what's what.  But then, my Holy One is not human in any sense and therefore has no emotions or a mind, for that matter.

Be well.

I agree with KFC in her discussion with Lula. But then Lula is the most atypical Catholic I have ever met, and I am surrounded by Catholics here.

Generally, I like the Catholic Church and their teachings.

LW, I think what we've seen is exactly what several of us were talking about.  Faith is pretty much the ONLY common ground after that it leans upon one's understanding of how they should live. 

I don't know of two people that live and believe exactly alike on ALL (that's 100%) aspects of walking out their faith.

It is always interesting how people focus on the areas they disagree rather than agree. 

LW, yeppers, a discussion is not about finger pointing.  Many people seem to have trouble drawing the distinction, including myself at times.  I think its when we are loaded with emotional baggage that we are prone to this sort of thing.  When I got to the Refuge Friday, on the fence gate, tucked in the chain, was a flier regarding coming to Jesus. At home a couple of weeks ago somebody came to the door trying to win my wife's soul for Jesus. At some point I just get, well, pretty frustrated.  I have to be very mindful.  I do have a ragged around the edges vet background to hold at bay.

Be well.

Understand, the fence gate is 13 miles of dirst road off a two lane highway in the middle of no where. Oy.

I agree Sodaiho. 

Lula and I are friends both on JU and off.  We agree on many things but she knows when she pushes the CC on me I will respond in a negative way. She gets that but she likes to keep trying anyhow.....LOL.  She's just being a good Catholic.  I am an ex-Catholic with a very Catholic background on both sides so I see things a bit differently. 

She thinks I'm off because I've been brainwashed by Luther and his cronies and I think she's been deceived by her CC's teachings.  As long as we are both dealing with only scripture most of the time we're ok.  It's only when she gets into CC's tradition do we hit heads, so to speak. 

LW...be honest.  You're just looking for another reason to bash us.  You've written as much here as I have. In the last 13 postings above...I see your postings twice and me once and mine was a joke to AD having nothing to do with Lula! 

 We're all having a conversation here....MM, AD, Leauki, Sodaiho, Lula and KFC.....and it is a religious blog so it's on topic.  Instead of bashing us almost everytime you can, why not add to the discussion in an honest way?  If you can't  take it or more like it...... Lula and I, then just don't get involved. 

It's getting tiresome LW. 

LW, for all your complaints about KFC and I defending our strongly held positions, you are barking up the wrong tree....and this is the main point which you've identified.....it's MM's blog, written about religion, posted in the religion category and so it's obviously his choice!  

MM posts #48

MM posts:

 I truthfully answered MM's question....and defended against his accusation (which KFC agrees) that the Church and I commit the grave sin of idolatry by having religious images and statues in all Catholic Churches.

Of Christ, Pontius Pilate ironically quipped, "What is truth?" not understanding that Truth was staring him in the face.

KFC and I agree ...the truth matters ...good things arise from the grasp of truth and evil things from a rejection of it.

I started out admitting that I'm religiously religious and a strong defender of the Church and Cathoilicism. I'm here  becasue I like discussing religion which is the most important subject of all.

It should be noted that your Catholicism is quite different from the philo-Semitic rational Catholicism I am used to here in Ireland.

For example, I totally agree with the Catholic Church's official position on evolution; but I hardly agree with your view.

Plus all the Catholics I know respect Judaism, while in your case I still remember your hateful statements about the Talmud.

me too, I just try not to drag in old wounds. I really am a live and let live kinda guy.

In my class I'm teaching at Temple Beth El on Contemplative Judaism, I have six students, four are Catholic.  Go figure.  Be a blessing.

Nice to see a different religion interested in another point of view.