I'd say show me, but then this would turn out to go in a direction MM doesn't wish it to go. But it's not a lie. There is no place in scripture that speaks of convert or die.

You have to take things out of context to say Christianity was propogated by the sword as Islam is doing. I know you're speaking of OT happenings but they did not kill the enemies for that reason. It's totally diff than forcing one to believe as you do or kill them. Even in the OT wars, that was never an issue.



I agree but that doesn't negate the fact that the Koran says otherwise. It does teach this.



I agree but I have to question their Christianity. I mean one can say they are Christian but their actions are suppose to be the evidence. So if they're bombing clinics, how does that measure up to the command to "love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us?" I hate the thought of baby killing, but I would never kill another to make things better. Two wrongs never make it right.

It's not the same with the Muslims. While I agree there are peaceful nice Muslims, their Koran and belief system is all built around conversion of the world or die eventually. It's all about submission to Allah. Their submission and our submission.

As for the insanity part, I agree...it's work to stay sane in an insane world isn't it?

Hmm, I think you've gotten a bit confused. Perhaps you should go back and re-read this thread. I was saying that the statement that the Christian bible says "convert or die" is a lie. You seem to have misread something here. We're actually in agreement on this (for once )

Cheap shot.


Whoaa...you make it sound that leaving the idyllic days of Bush will be the judgement day!



Hang on now--take a deep breath. When the world's oil reserve is finally depleted SANITY will return.

yep you're right.....I thought you were saying the opposite of what you were really saying....my bad!



ha! Yep.



it ain't gonna happen.

Which? Sanity or oil--or both?

Short term - both, long term - sanity.

Really? What were the crusades then? Christianity has a very violent past where they attempted to spread the religion thru force (and in many cases were successful). And as a little aside here on "love your enemies", then what is with the bombings and violent attacks on abortion clinics? Am I to believe that it is simply "tough love"? And for the record I didn't say that the Christian bible taught the whole "covert or die" ideology that is in the Koran, merely that some of the teachings in the bible can be interpreted as such.


On another note:



It's not about whether or not you "hate" your victim, in general hate crimes are deemed such when the person commiting the crime does so out of "hate" for a particular group of people and not necessarily for the victim(s). So in the case of the kid who hacked up his parents it wasn't a hate crime because he didn't do it based on a particular group associated with his parents whereas the guy who shot up the church did so because they had "liberal" views that he "hated".

they were NOT acting on behalf of Christ but themselves. They were acting out of greed for power, pride and whatever else they were motivated to do what they did. But it was NOT in the name of Christ.



No. Christianity doesn't. Men who violated the laws of Christianity did.



No, anyone can call themselves Christian. It doesn't mean they are. They are not working on behalf of God. It goes against all that was taught by Christ. In fact, if someone is out there bombing clinics I would have to question their sanity...as well as their
Christianity.



ok, let's go with that then. What about when the Amish kids got shot up by complete strangers in PA a few years ago? Was that considered a "hate crime?" Or how about Columbine when all the Christian kids got targeted? Was that a hate crime cuz I don't remember hearing this term applied to this group of victims.





well you can interpret 1+1=5 too...doesn't make it true. In order to interpret something as such, means to leave out a whole lot of other stuff that says otherwise.

I realize wikipedia may not be the best reference in the world but it is easily available (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades). To quote the first few lines from the entry: "The Crusades were a series of military campaigns of a religious character waged by much of Christian Europe against external and internal opponents. Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims, though campaigns were also directed against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians and political enemies of the popes.[1] Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins."

I don't know about you but that certainly sounds to me like the Crusades were carried out in the name of Christ in an effort to stop the spread of other religions in favor of Christianity. I suppose you could interpret it as greed for power, but the base of that power was their view of Christianity.




Couldn't the same be said of Muslims? There are plenty of peaceful Muslims out there so why you can make the same exceptions for the violent ones that you do for the violent people that call themselves Christian?



But isn't that kinda the point here. The extremeists are "intepreting" some of the teaching to be violent. There are plenty, some could argue a majority, that "intepret" the same teachings in a non-violent nature. Both parties come from the same place. And again you make an exception for violent Christians why not make the same exception for violent Muslims?





I honestly don't remember what the given reasons for the assault were. From what I can recall I would certainly classify it as a hate crime whether it was classified as such or not I can't remember.



Again from what I can remember this also could potentially meet the requirements of a hate crime although I don't think it was against Christians as much as it was against Jocks and others who had mocked and ridiculed the two assalaints throughout their entire lives. The fact that most, if not all, of the people killed or injured were Christian is more of a product of where the attack took place, a very large Christian population so it stands to reason that more Christians would end up getting hurt.

El-Duderino, don't forget the Inquisition now either.

It is true that Christians have not always been nice. Many atrocities have been committed throughout church history in the name of Christ. Muslims are fond of referring to the Crusades, the Inquisition and the fighting in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics. "Christians" have done and continue to do many evil things in the name of Christ. However, when "Christians" have engaged in such violence, they have BETRAYED the teachings of Jesus and have turned their back on the examples that He set for us. But when Muslims engage in violence, murder, and other acts of terrorism, they can legitimately claim that they are following the commands of God as found in the Qur'an and in the examples of Muhammad and his teachings. This represents a MAJOR distinction between Christianity and Islam.

Here are some Quranic verses that are used to support the Islamic violence and are passages supposedly direct revelations from God to Muhammad and the Muslims.

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you....and slay them whereever you catch them....and fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in Allah" Sur 2:190-193. This command is to keep fighting, to keep slaying wherever you catch the enemies of God.

"Fighting is prescribed upon you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth and ye know not." Sura 2:216 Here we see some reluctance on the part of the Muslim community to fight; but God tells them, "I know what is good for you."

"For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies (Sura 4:101). "They but wish that you should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they); so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah....But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them" (Sura 4:89)..."fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)" (Sura 9:5). "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, ....nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians)" Sura 9:29.

Some of the violence commanded is gruesome: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the hereafter" Sura 5:33. "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment" Sura 8:12-13. "therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers, smite at their necks; at length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind the bond firmly" (sura 47:4.

These are not isolated passages that some people are misinterpreting or quoting out of context. Such verses are prevalent thruout the Qur'an, supporting the view that Allah wants his people to fight and destroy the enemies of the people of Allah by the use of the sword or other violence. That destruction can take the form of assassinations, persecution, suicide bombings, or a death sentence on anyone who supposedly ridicules the Islamic faith.

El-Duderino are you a Muslim?


Now, I challange you to show me anywhere where we are to bomb abortion clinics or slay the Muslims for simply not adhering to the faith of Christianity using the words of Christ.

Nope. And I haven't done much research on the Koran or Qur'an to be completely honest. I just know that there are plenty of peaceful Muslims out there which leads me to question whether the passages are really meant to be interpreted as go out and seek out fights with non-muslims or rather fight them when they fight you. But like I have said I don't know much about the Koran so I will take your word for it that it is as violent as you say.

That said it doesn't change the fact that many horrible deeds have been carried out in the name of Christ.




My guess is that when you say "using the words of Christ" you are referring to the New Testament, but the Christian faith is founded using both the old and new testaments and the old certainly has passages that ask for violence to be carried out. In fact the book that is used most often when people argue against homosexuality, Leviticus, is full of rules and regulations for members of the faith (Christian and Jewish) where they are supposed to stone people to death who commit certain crimes against God. I don't have a bible handy to offer quotes up but take a tour through Leviticus and you'll see what I mean. If I have time this evening after I get home I will look up some more specific quotes for you but that is something I'm unable to do at work.

wow I leave for a few days and this blog just took off. Does my heart good to see a feww good people are paying attention.

Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!

yes, there are lots of peaceful Muslims DESPITE what their Qu'ran tells them to do...just like there are plenty of rebellious Christians DESPITE what their scriptures tell them to do.



agreed, but notice what you've done. You've taken the "Peaceful" Muslims and compared them to the "war-loving" Christians or abortion bombers. What about the many "peaceful" Christians and the many "Muslim terrorists?"

I'm going to the root of all this, which is both of their written words.



but for different reasons than what we are seeing with the Muslims. I mean you were comparing the two remember? The Jews were never to go to war against the Pagans in order to convert them. Never. They were, in the OT, to go to war but there were always reasons for this that had to do with the preservation of Israel and nothing to do with conversion.

Even in the NT Christ never ever tells us to try and force belief. He says, go and tell, if they accept, you have won a brother, if they do not accept, shake the dust off and continue on your journey. Never ever are we to push or feel we are the ones converting. It was never our job to do so. Ever. I'm afraid many Christians don't know their own word, even today so those atrocities in the past were a result of a very dark age....remember it was the dark ages afterall.